Hey ppl! Debate - Honda Engines vs BMW Engines

[Stitch]

Engine Parameters

Let take a look at what the engineers will consider just inside the engine to design an engine.

1 Strength of Material used in any part of the engine
• Yield strength
• Ultimate tensile strength
• Modulus of elasticity
2. Strain of Material – Poisson’s ration – deformation under load, temp
3. Decay of Material through time
4. Turning angle of the piston arms set (angular momentum), length of arms – varies the torque inside the engine.
5. Frictional loss within the power cylinder.
• Low friction piston ring packs
• High performance coating
• Cylinder bore finishes
6. Ignition angle
7. Timing of spark propagates
8. Inlet and exhaust valve spreads
9. Energy loss (Energy transfer to noise, heat, movement – excessive vibration) There is different between the “Purr” sound and noise.
10. Proportion of air to fuel intake
11. Temperature of the engine and air intake varies the Entropy
12. Engine speed
13. Air mass flow
14. Software works hand in hand with the engine
15. Lubricate on bearings
16. Smoothness of the cycles – avoid engine knock
17. Pollutant output – NO, CO, noise
18. etc…

 

[Pete K]

All this stuff about engine design characteristics is over my head. All I know is that my i6 motor (with 154K) sings like nothing else. I never get tired of it. Sometimes I turn the radio off just to feel it, listen to it. No other car does that for me.

I've always wondered what an inline 8 would be like. Would it be even smoother than an i6?

As far as durability goes both BMW and Honda are tough as nails. But I think the toughest engines of all are Mercedes diesels. We had a couple in my family. You can beat em, neglect em, whatever--but they won't die!

Hey Stitch, are sure you're not a mechanical engineer? I'm civil and we never covered any of that in Steel Design

 

[epj3]

All this stuff about engine design characteristics is over my head. All I know is that my i6 motor (with 154K) sings like nothing else. I never get tired of it. Sometimes I turn the radio off just to feel it, listen to it. No other car does that for me.

I've always wondered what an inline 8 would be like. Would it be even smoother than an i6?

As far as durability goes both BMW and Honda are tough as nails. But I think the toughest engines of all are Mercedes diesels. We had a couple in my family. You can beat em, neglect em, whatever--but they won't die!

Hey Stitch, are sure you're not a mechanical engineer? I'm civil and we never covered any of that in Steel Design

I know some inline 8's have been produced (buick??) but the engine would be very long, and the problem with that is the crankshaft has to be very long too, and very strong. It would have to be near perfectly balanced too, since the flywheel and vibration dampener (on the front of the motor) would be so far away from each other.

 

[PhatBimmer]

Yeah thats what I heard, thats why they don't make anything outside the I6. V's are a dif. story

 

[Stitch]

All this stuff about engine design characteristics is over my head. All I know is that my i6 motor (with 154K) sings like nothing else. I never get tired of it. Sometimes I turn the radio off just to feel it, listen to it. No other car does that for me.

I've always wondered what an inline 8 would be like. Would it be even smoother than an i6?

As far as durability goes both BMW and Honda are tough as nails. But I think the toughest engines of all are Mercedes diesels. We had a couple in my family. You can beat em, neglect em, whatever--but they won't die!

Hey Stitch, are sure you're not a mechanical engineer? I'm civil and we never covered any of that in Steel Design

I spent some yrs in state highway design. That's why I am into this topic so much. I am still designing some local highways with huge size truck like WB-62 and WB-50.

 

[Stitch]

Read a lot of books about material science, thermodynamic, fluid mechanic and hydraulic. Ready for another degree.

 

[brahtw8]

I know some inline 8's have been produced (buick??) but the engine would be very long, and the problem with that is the crankshaft has to be very long too, and very strong. It would have to be near perfectly balanced too, since the flywheel and vibration dampener (on the front of the motor) would be so far away from each other.

Inline, or 'straight' engines were very popular in the old days, as were slant engines, which are similar in design.

The early engines did not rev to the kind of RPM of modern engines, so crankshaft length was not as much of an issue back then.

Some people believe the S54 failure is related to the crankshaft length/vibration at high RPM . . .

 

[Stitch]

I thought not only engineers, everybody will base on data thur the media followed by a test drive and then decide what they will buy! Feeling is hard to measure, right Pete?

 

[Kirby]

An I8 is possible but not practical. As EPJ said, length becomes an issue.

Some time ago I read an article about this. For car engines, the additional complexity and weight needed (larger, stronger crank, additional bearing supports, bearings, etc.) to make an I8 offsets any benefit of 8 cylinders.

In other words, the power to weight ratio starts to drop. Of course, the story id different for when you talk about large applications, like ships, generators, etc. There are I8 and bigger in that game. Quite a while ago somebody posted a picture of "The Mother of all engines"

 

[epj3]

An I8 is possible but not practical. As EPJ said, length becomes an issue.

Some time ago I read an article about this. For car engines, the additional complexity and weight needed (larger, stronger crank, additional bearing supports, bearings, etc.) to make an I8 offsets any benefit of 8 cylinders.

In other words, the power to weight ratio starts to drop. Of course, the story id different for when you talk about large applications, like ships, generators, etc. There are I8 and bigger in that game. Quite a while ago somebody posted a picture of "The Mother of all engines"

Plus if you look at the V8's from companies who've been building V8's FOREVER, like GM and mercedes... the crank itself is so incredibly short.

 

[Stitch]

Nonlinear Hydraulic w/ Varies Valve Timing
Strength
Provides continuously variable valve timing
Easy to produce
Weakness
Low oil pressure causes low reaction time
Change in oil pressure slightly varies valve timing consistencies

Offset Camshaft w/ Varies Valve Timing - eg. Vanos
Strength
Provides continuously variable valve timing
Easy to install
Maintain high torque
Weakness
Inability to mass produce

Unthrottled Electromechanical w/ Varies Valve Timing - eg. Valvetonic
Strength
Very smooth variable valve timing for different situations
Best emissions and fuel consumption
Weakness
Unable to be installed in automobile with current electrical system
High cost to provide sufficient electricity consumption

 

[MrElussive]

I think the key to answering this question (or even coming close to doing so) is figuring out what "better" means. Fuel economy, engine design, engine longevity, performance (hp/liter, or torque & hp, etc.), engine sound, or anything like that. Not only that, different engines are in different cars for different purposes.
It's kind of hard to say what's the best or even what's better, especially nowadays, where for the most part you just can't go wrong on what car you purchase.

brahtw8, as for the NSX, Acura needs to make more "noise" about its presence. Most people who think they know a lot about cars have probably never even heard of an NSX. And for $90K, a 997 911 Carrera S is a much better value than the Acura. I know a lot of guys (including yourself) found a great sports car for cheap by picking up a used NSX, but if nobody buys the new one, there will be no more used NSX's for guys like you to buy (I don't mean that in a negative way). I believe in cars that sell themselves - the Acura NSX being one of them - but if most people don't know the vehicle even exists, I think we have a problem.

 

[Chesty Bonds]

^^ If more people played Gran Turismo then they'd surely know more about the NSX!

 

[MrElussive]

Good call, Chesty. I really think Honda/Acura needs to do better advertising with the NSX. I know most guys will overlook it because they are not familiar with it and it is not pleasing to most people's eye. It is a great underrated sports car, but at the same time it's kinda cool because only the true enthusiasts own them.

 

[Average Jae]

If you are interested, I may be able to arrange an NSX ride in your area so that you will be better informed on the subject . . .

Ryan, you better not be teasing!! i looooove the NSX, the japanese baby Ferrari is sweet. i know porsches are cool too, and i'd prolly pick the 997 over the NSX, but oh man, the NSX is just sick!

btw Ryan, i haven't seen you this active in a while. congrats on the 1 large+

Emile, i know exactly what you mean about the s2k engine. for a weekend car, it'd be sweet, but for a daily communiter, it might wear on me. amazing that a 4 cyl spins near 5 figures! who needs a crotch rocket!

 

[epj3]

Inline, or 'straight' engines were very popular in the old days, as were slant engines, which are similar in design.

The early engines did not rev to the kind of RPM of modern engines, so crankshaft length was not as much of an issue back then.

Some people believe the S54 failure is related to the crankshaft length/vibration at high RPM . . .

Last I heard the bearings were out of spec of made with a material with impurities.

 

[aNoodle]

I think you are all forgetting we're talking engines - not the cars they are in [shake]

I thought we were talking about how Honda pioneered street legal lawn mowers
[bmwdance]

 

[Kirby]

The NSX is unfortunately going away. They sunk $800 million into development and never got even close to a payback, it has been given the axe. They did blow it in a sense, marketing wise. They should have heavily promoted it as their flagship achievement and gotten at least a trickle down marketing payback.

As the US manufacturers used to say in the 60s regarding NASCAR - "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday"

 

[Stitch]

GT level Race

24 hours of Le Mans - Winners

• 1923 - André Lagache / René Leonard (Chenard-Walcker)
• 1924 - John Duff / Frank Clement (Bentley 3.0)
• 1925 - Gérard de Courcelles / André Rossignol (Lorraine-Dietrich)
• 1926 - Robert Bloch / André Rossignol (Lorraine-Dietrich)
• 1927 - John Benjafield / Sammy Davis (Bentley 3.0)
• 1928 - Woolf Barnato / Bernard Rubin (Bentley 4.4)
• 1929 - Woolf Barnato / Tim Birkin (Bentley 6.6)
• 1930 - Woolf Barnato / Glen Kidston (Bentley 6.6
• 1931 - Earl Howe / Tim Birkin (Alfa Romeo 8C)
• 1932 - Raymond Sommer / Luigi Chinetti (Alfa Romeo 8C)
• 1933 - Raymond Sommer / Tazio Nuvolari (Alfa Romeo 8C)
• 1934 - Luigi Chinetti / Philippe Etancelin (Alfa Romeo 8C)
• 1935 - John Hindmarsh / Louis Fontes (Lagonda M45R)
• 1936 - No race
• 1937 - Jean-Pierre Wimille / Robert Benoist (Bugatti Type 57G)
• 1938 - Eugène Chaboud / Jean Tremoulet (Delahaye 135M)
• 1939 - Jean-Pierre Wimille / Pierre Veyron (Bugatti Type 57)
• 1940 - 1948: No races due to World War II
• 1949 - Luigi Chinetti / Lord Selsdon (Ferrari 166MM)
• 1950 - Louis Rosier / Jean-Louis Rosier (Talbot-Lago)
• 1951 - Peter Walker / Peter Whitehead (Jaguar XK120C)
• 1952 - Hermann Lang / Fritz Reiss (Mercedes 300SL)
• 1953 - Tony Rolt / Duncan Hamilton (Jaguar C-Type)
• 1954 - Froilán González / Maurice Trintignant (Ferrari 375)
• 1955 - Mike Hawthorn / Ivor Bueb (Jaguar D-Type)
• 1956 - Ron Flockhart / Ninian Sanderson (Jaguar D-Type)
• 1957 - Ron Flockhart / Ivor Bueb (Jaguar D-Type)
• 1958 - Olivier Gendebien / Phil Hill (Ferrari 250TR)
• 1959 - Carroll Shelby / Roy Salvadori (Aston Martin DBR1)
• 1960 - Olivier Gendebien / Paul Frère (Ferrari TR60)
• 1961 - Olivier Gendebien / Phil Hill (Ferrari TR61)
• 1962 - Olivier Gendebien / Phil Hill (Ferrari 330LM)
• 1963 - Ludovico Scarfiotti / Lorenzo Bandini (Ferrari 250P)
• 1964 - Jean Guichet / Nino Vaccarella (Ferrari 275P)
• 1965 - Jochen Rindt / Masten Gregory (Ferrari 275LM)
• 1966 - Bruce McLaren / Chris Amon (Ford GT-40 Mk.II)
• 1967 - Dan Gurney / A.J. Foyt (Ford GT-40 Mk. IV)
• 1968 - Pedro Rodriguez / Lucien Bianchi (Ford GT-40)
• 1969 - Jacky Ickx / Jackie Oliver (Ford GT-40)
• 1970 - Hans Herrmann / Richard Attwood (Porsche 917K)
• 1971 - Helmut Marko / Gijs van Lennep (Porsche 917K)
• 1972 - Henri Pescarolo / Graham Hill (Matra MS670)
• 1973 - Henri Pescarolo / Gérard Larrousse (Matra MS670B)
• 1974 - Henri Pescarolo / Gérard Larrousse (Matra MS670B)
• 1975 - Jacky Ickx / Derek Bell (Mirage GR8)
• 1976 - Jacky Ickx / Gijs van Lennep (Porsche 936)
• 1977 - Jacky Ickx / Hurley Haywood / Jürgen Barth (Porsche 936)
• 1978 - Jean-Pierre Laussaud / Didier Pironi (Renault-Alpine A 442)
• 1979 - Klaus Ludwig / Bill Whittington / Don Whittington (Porsche 935)
• 1980 - Jean Rondeau / Jean-Pierre Jaussaud (Rondeau M379B)
• 1981 - Jacky Ickx / Derek Bell (Porsche 936)
• 1982 - Jacky Ickx / Derek Bell (Porsche 956)
• 1983 - Vern Schuppan / Al Holbert / Hurley Haywood (Porsche 956)
• 1984 - Klaus Ludwig / Henri Pescarolo (Joest-Porsche 956)
• 1985 - Klaus Ludwig / Paolo Barilla/ John Winter (Joest-Porsche 956)
• 1986 - Derek Bell / Hans-Joachim Stuck / Al Holbert (Porsche 962C)
• 1987 - Derek Bell / Hans-Joachim Stuck / Al Holbert (Porsche 962C)
• 1988 - Jan Lammers / Johnny Dumfries / Andy Wallace (Jaguar XJR-9LM)
• 1989 - Jochen Mass / Manuel Reuter / Stanley Dickens (Sauber-Mercedes)
• 1990 - John Nielsen / Price Cobb / Martin Brundle (Jaguar XJR-12)
• 1991 - Volker Weidler / Johnny Herbert / Bertrand Gachot (Mazda 787B)
• 1992 - Derek Warwick / Yannick Dalmas / Mark Blundell (Peugeot 905)
• 1993 - Gary Brabham / Christophe Bouchut / Eric Hélary (Peugeot 905)
• 1994 - Yannick Dalmas / Hurley Haywood / Mauro Baldi (Dauer-Porsche 962LM)
• 1995 - Yannick Dalmas / J.J. Lehto / Masanori Sekiya (McLaren F1 GTR BMW-V12)
• 1996 - Manuel Reuter / Davy Jones / Alexander Wurz (TWR-Porsche)
• 1997 - Michele Alboreto / Stefan Johansson / Tom Kristensen (TWR-Porsche)
• 1998 - Laurent Aiello / Allan McNish / Stéphane Ortelli (Porsche 911 GT-1)
• 1999 - Pierluigi Martini / Yannick Dalmas / Joachim Winkelhock (BMW V12 LMR)
• 2000 - Frank Biela / Tom Kristensen / Emanuele Pirro (Audi R8 LMP)
• 2001 - Frank Biela / Tom Kristensen / Emanuele Pirro (Audi R8 LMP)
• 2002 - Frank Biela / Tom Kristensen / Emanuele Pirro (Audi R8 LMP)
• 2003 - Tom Kristensen / Rinaldo Capello / Guy Smith (Bentley Speed 8 GT)
• 2004 - Seiji Ara / Tom Kristensen / Rinaldo Capello(Audi R8 LMP)


I don't see any Honda/Acura here on the list!

 

[epj3]

24 hours of Le Mans - Winners


I don't see any Honda/Acura here on the list!

Hey here's an impressive newsflash: Honda doesn't race in Grand Touring races.

This is though
Honda RA005E
Displacement 3.0 litres
Configuration V10 naturally aspirated
Vee angle 90 degrees
Maximum power Over 900 ps
Maximum revs Over 18,500 rpm
Valve train 4 valves per cylinder, pneumatic valve system
Injection system Honda PGM-FI
Throttle system Electronic hydraulically-operated system
Ignition system Honda PGM-IG