Z4/Z4M Coupe to debut in Sept at Frankfurt

MrElussive · Aug 29, 2005

The new M Roadster is going to be amazing. I remember when the Z3 M Roadster was so new, I thought it was one of the most amazing cars out there. This guy in my town had the blue M Roadster with black and blue two-tone interior and he would drive through my street to get home while I was riding my bike. It was just such an amazing whip every time I saw it, but this new Z4 M Roadster is going to be even more amazing.

Chesty Bonds · Aug 29, 2005

MrElussive said:

I can't believe you're saying that. Sit in an E38 7er and tell me it doesn't feel awesome to be low-slung and so enveloped by the dash and instrument cluster.

MrElussive · Aug 29, 2005

Chesty Bonds said:

I know I've said this several times before, but my uncle had an E38 740iL for 6 years (he went through two versions of the E38 and the body before that) and he now has the 745Li. When he was shopping for the car, I kept telling him to stay away from the new 7, but he insisted on "sticking with BMW" and he was definitely right. I've been in the 745Li quite a bit and even the first time I got in, I cannot believe how much the interior blows away the E38 740iL. Granted the exterior styling is purely subjective, the quality of the materials, the way everything works, it's all substantially nicer than the E38 and it does not matter if you are sitting in the back or the front. Every aspect of the interior is roomier, more luxurious and classy, and offers better features. And as for the drive, he has the non-Sport package model and it rides extremely smooth and still offers great handling. The 4.4 liter V8 moves the car well and the brakes are strong. The new 745Li is just a better car than the 740iL and comes with a bigger price tag. The only thing you can argue is the way it looks and whether you like iDrive or not.
But all this "interior materials quality" and "interior functionality" is all just BS as far as I'm concerned. You are all just being straight up stubborn at this point, and I hate to say that.

deutsch100 · Aug 29, 2005

MrElussive said:

I hate to say it Emile, but you are the one who is being stubborn. Yes, there are a few people on our board that like some of the new design "themes", and agree/side with you (design used very loosely

, but it seems that well more than the majority of members (new & old) are NOT happy with BMW's new designs, interior layout and especially materials. I respect you opinion 100% and your admiration of The New BMWs, but since you are in the very, very small minority who does like them....you really shouldn't call us stubborn. It is you who comes off as very stubborn.

epj3 · Aug 29, 2005

MrElussive said:

I know I've said this several times before, but my uncle had an E38 740iL for 6 years (he went through two versions of the E38 and the body before that) and he now has the 745Li. When he was shopping for the car, I kept telling him to stay away from the new 7, but he insisted on "sticking with BMW" and he was definitely right. I've been in the 745Li quite a bit and even the first time I got in, I cannot believe how much the interior blows away the E38 740iL. Granted the exterior styling is purely subjective, the quality of the materials, the way everything works, it's all substantially nicer than the E38 and it does not matter if you are sitting in the back or the front. Every aspect of the interior is roomier, more luxurious and classy, and offers better features. And as for the drive, he has the non-Sport package model and it rides extremely smooth and still offers great handling. The 4.4 liter V8 moves the car well and the brakes are strong. The new 745Li is just a better car than the 740iL and comes with a bigger price tag. The only thing you can argue is the way it looks and whether you like iDrive or not.
But all this "interior materials quality" and "interior functionality" is all just BS as far as I'm concerned. You are all just being straight up stubborn at this point, and I hate to say that.

Then why are you looking for luxary cars? Why not buy something like a subaru wrx sti? The interior is shitty and the looks are subjective, but they have an incredible drive, and are very sturdy cars. I think that seems to meet your criteria.

epj3 · Aug 29, 2005

deutsch100 said:

I wouldn't say I dont like them, I would just prefer the understated styling of the E36, E46, E38 and E39. To me thats what defines a bmw - simple and understated but muscular appearance, driver oriented drive (like your steering wheel is actually physically connected to the steering components, not this variable servo bullshit), etc.

I like the new 3 and 5, but if I were looking for a car that I will not only be comfortable in but have fun, the new 3, 5, and 7 would be FAR from my first choice. The new bmw's lost that "fun" factor. Sure they handle better, stop better, and accelerate better - but that's not all that makes a car, or else the corvette would be tons more popular.

MrElussive · Aug 29, 2005

We are all free to have our opinions, but I do not understand the interior complaints. I can understand it if you do not like iDrive, but power seat controls, climate control, and other regular functions are completely there without the iDrive system. The materials are of high quality as all of the buttons and switches feel completely solid, they do not scratch easily, and they are easy to use and not so easy to break. If you want a cheap interior, come and take a look at my G35C. Any aluminum trim used in any BMW is of FAR better quality than in my vehicle and the wood trim is real just like any other Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi. I can understand it if you are all used to a typical BMW interior and typical BMW controls, but the auto world demands cars to offer more features, more luxury, and more performance. With this comes new interiors designed to provide all of this to the driver while keeping complications to a minimum. I know every magazine you read hates on iDrive and BMW interiors, but in the real world the new BMW's are selling like hot cakes. It is impossible for so many BMW's to be sold with everybody hating their purchases.

As Eric mentioned, I am not too crazy about the variable-ratio power steering, but if I were in the market for a new BMW (hey, I only got one more year), I would definitely skip that option and I'd be more than happy to take iDrive and the radically different new BMW interiors. [:)]

As long as the BMW drive is still there, and I get my climate control, power seats, navigation, premium stereo system, and Xenon headlights, I am one happy camper.

HornyHornet · Aug 29, 2005

I have been sitting here reading all these posts and really like everyone's points. I personaly do not have much to say but I 'm with Emile; I like the new BMWs. As much as I love my E39, I have to conclude that change is inevitably coming, and glad that the new generation of Bimmers are still,in my opinion, the best vehicles in their segment.

epj3 · Aug 29, 2005

HornyHornet said:

And considering how 'soft' bmw has gone - this really says a lot about the OTHER manufacturers.

Emile - People's complaints HERE aren't about idrive, climate control and power seat (which has been in some bmw's since the mid-80's), etc. The complain in this thread is that bmw has gone from an interior designed to be very luxurious BUT still extremely functional. They have COMPLETELY done away with the "functional" part. Meaning the engineers who designed the interiors ONLY thought about looks and comfort. Obviously this is 90% of the design - but there's still that last 10% that designers need to take into consideration of driver ergonomics. They are trying to improve upon designs that don't need improved.

Their designs from the mid 80's to the early 2000's made sense and put the driver 'in charge' of the car. The driver was in command of every aspect of the car, while being EXTREMELY comfortable.

Yes, new interiors are extremely comfortable no doubt about it, and the appearances are a subjective matter, but the new dash is designed exactly like the dashboards on american cars from the 40's to the 70's with a big flat boring dashboard, with controls smack in the middle arranged in an order that doesn't make sense. Sure it didn't look bad, and it worked, except it didn't give the driver that feeling of being in charge.

Even suv's are designed in a way to make the driver feel in charge of their vehicle. Last I heard bmw called themselves the ultimate DRIVING machine. Recently their emphasis has been on comfort and reliability. Their engines are so advanced that there will be NO aftermarket for them (except for tuners who can afford the R&D, like dinan). The aftermarket there will be will be incredibly expensive. I love a comfortable and reliable car, but I didn't get into bmw's for a pretty looking dashboard!!

Chesty Bonds · Aug 30, 2005

deutsch100 said:

I hate to say it Emile, but you are the one who is being stubborn. Yes, there are a few people on our board that like some of the new design "themes", and agree/side with you (design used very loosely

, but it seems that well more than the majority of members (new & old) are NOT happy with BMW's new designs, interior layout and especially materials. I respect you opinion 100% and your admiration of The New BMWs, but since you are in the very, very small minority who does like them....you really shouldn't call us stubborn. It is you who comes off as very stubborn.

Damn straight mate. You took the words right out of my mouth!

Chesty Bonds · Aug 30, 2005

epj3 said:

And considering how 'soft' bmw has gone - this really says a lot about the OTHER manufacturers.

Emile - People's complaints HERE aren't about idrive, climate control and power seat (which has been in some bmw's since the mid-80's), etc. The complain in this thread is that bmw has gone from an interior designed to be very luxurious BUT still extremely functional. They have COMPLETELY done away with the "functional" part. Meaning the engineers who designed the interiors ONLY thought about looks and comfort. Obviously this is 90% of the design - but there's still that last 10% that designers need to take into consideration of driver ergonomics. They are trying to improve upon designs that don't need improved.

Their designs from the mid 80's to the early 2000's made sense and put the driver 'in charge' of the car. The driver was in command of every aspect of the car, while being EXTREMELY comfortable.

Yes, new interiors are extremely comfortable no doubt about it, and the appearances are a subjective matter, but the new dash is designed exactly like the dashboards on american cars from the 40's to the 70's with a big flat boring dashboard, with controls smack in the middle arranged in an order that doesn't make sense. Sure it didn't look bad, and it worked, except it didn't give the driver that feeling of being in charge.

Even suv's are designed in a way to make the driver feel in charge of their vehicle. Last I heard bmw called themselves the ultimate DRIVING machine. Recently their emphasis has been on comfort and reliability. Their engines are so advanced that there will be NO aftermarket for them (except for tuners who can afford the R&D, like dinan). The aftermarket there will be will be incredibly expensive. I love a comfortable and reliable car, but I didn't get into bmw's for a pretty looking dashboard!!

Oh how right this is Eric! This is exactly what I'm on about too. The new BMs just don't have that real 'driver's' feel anymore. I just love the way the dash on my old man's E38 seems to shrink-wrap around you and I think this is one of the ways that BMW can seem to make such a big car feel so small and so lithe.

Those were the days, were they not?

MrElussive · Aug 30, 2005

But the thing is, none of you guys own or drive the new BMW's, so how would you know if it's functional or not? You guys just look at the pictures and make comments based on your experience of absolutely nothing. You guys are arguing to a point where your debate just makes no sense and holds no water anymore.

Look at the E39 5er and the new 5er interior pictures carefully. The headlight knob is still the same, the shift knob and steering wheel are still the same, the gauges are still the same, and the center dash looks more organized on the new 5er thanks to iDrive. Pretty much all you have exposed is auto climate control adjustments, and you just simply twist the knobs to adjust temperature. And the interior looks far nicer with a modern layout and lots of wood trim. The new BMW interior are not that far off from the old BMW interiors. For whatever reason, you guys keep hating on the interior but you really are just being stubborn about it. BMW is selling a lot of these cars because they perform better, they offer more luxury and comfort, and they are better to operate. You guys can stay stuck in the past but stop bashing BMW because now you're all just talking a lot without really saying much and I do not enjoy wasting my time reading it all.

epj3 · Aug 30, 2005

MrElussive said:

Actually a LOT of us have driven some of the new bmw's and a lot even own new bmw's.

Plus, you're forgetting that, even if we HAVEN'T driven the new cars, you saying that the new designs are improved upon the OLD designs - even though YOU only look at pictures (have you ever driven an E30 M3? No! Yet you say they drive like crap). You have to stop being a hypocrite about things. Sure not all of us drove a new 745i like you, but you haven't driven any of the older cars you are saying are crap compared to the new ones. You know now better than us.

There's a reason the 15 year old cars with 200k+ miles still sell for $5k+, let alone the M's that sell for just as much as a used late 90's e36 M3. Think people just don't know what they are doing when they blow that money????

epj3 · Aug 30, 2005

BTW comfort and sport are two opposites when it comes to car design, people wouldn't mind the new interiors if they hadn't taken away a lot of the 'sport' which is what defined bmw for the past 20 years (excluding the new models).

Again, just handling well doesn't make it a sporty car....

MrElussive · Aug 30, 2005

I'm sorry, what are you even arguing at this point?

And exactly what makes BMW interiors so sporty? The E30 3-Series, E36 3-Series, and E46 3-Series have always been luxury sport sedans, nothing more, nothing less. Exactly how has the new E90 3-Series lost any sport because it is now a better luxury sport sedan than it used to be? The E90 is a better driving machine than the E46 and you are really just speaking out of your ass at this point.

epj3 · Aug 30, 2005

MrElussive said:

But like i said, they are doing more to keep you from feeling the road, or even remember that you are DRIVING. Sure it's a great thing in a 7 series, but not a 3er.

Though, i guess that's why we have an aftermarket.

MrElussive · Aug 30, 2005

yo but I don't think that's true because every time you read BMW reviews, the reviewer will mention how all the bumps in the road are transferred through the steering wheel and such. If you get any BMW with the sport package, the suspension is tuned to let you know what's going on with the road, sending vibrations through the steering wheel. If you get it without the Sport Package, then you've got your luxury vehicle that isolates you from the road. Even the big 7's will let you know what's going on through the steering wheel as long as you get that Sport Package.
It is also not so easy to send vibrations through the wheel anymore because cars are always equipped with such huge tires and rims. If you go over bumps and the stuff, the steering wheel can easily get jerked around...they don't want to make the wheel so jumpy that it steers you off the road into a telelphone poll. Remember that most people would rather have their hands on their morning coffee instead of the wheel on the way to work. [bash]

I think that any softness we've seen come from BMW over time has occured to all car companies of the auto industry, and although there is a lot of competition now, BMW is still (and hopefully always will be) leading the pack.

Kirby · Aug 30, 2005

I'm getting a kick out of this whole thread, especially in the context of other threads about BMW's new designs.

BMW is accused of going soft and not being sporty, yet there are complaints about the minimal, hard Z4 interior and ride. There are complaints about the E90 not being aggressive looking, but criticism about the hard lines on the Z4. There are comments that the E90 is not "sporty", even though BMW calls it a "luxury sports sedan", not a sports car. The Z4 is built to be a true sports roadster, and people hate it. The E90 out handles the E30, E36, and E46 in on-track slaloms, performance tests, etc. but it's said the E90 is "disconnected from the road".

My bottom line?

- BMW isn't going soft, they are segmenting the marketplace, and some people don't agree with HOW they are doing it.
- There are plenty of consumers buying E90s, so SOMEBODY likes them.
- Some people welcome change, even if it is not what they expected.
- Some people are resistant to change, and know it.
- Some people are resistant to change, and don't know it.

I suppose that BMW should have stopped changing designs way back in the '70s and stuck with the 2002?

epj3 · Aug 30, 2005

Kirby said:

I (personally) never argued that the new cars weren't way more capable than the old ones - but I did say that they aren't as sporty even though they handle better, stop better, etc.

Why? For example: My dad's pontiac grand prix holds the road better, stops as well, and accelerates faster. But, is it sportier? Not a chance. Are you more disconnected in his car? DEFINITELY.

I dont mind change either - I just dont like the way ALL car companies are going. They all build cars to last 100k miles and thats it. Sure they can last longer but they aren't 'over built' like the old cars were. Thats why so many people enjoy the older bmw's.

I could've bought a used mustang cobra (the non-supercharged version) if I wanted, but I would much rather have a bmw. Slower, doesnt handle as well, etc. But they do drive a lot nicer.

BTW I'd much rather have the e90 than the e46, for tons of reasons. I believe they got rid of the structural issues the 3 series has had for the past 14 years.

MrElussive · Aug 30, 2005

I definitely agree with you Kirby, but Eric does bring up certain good points. I would just like to state that although Eric and I debate a lot on the forum, we do chat on AIM all the time so even when our arguments seem hostile or aggressive, we are still chill on a person-to-person basis. I assume this is also the case with Adam, Chesty, and others when we are debating.
I do see what you all are saying, but I think it comes down to a difference of views and opinions. Eric is right in that sports cars should perform well stastically and regarding the driving experience, and car companies are slowly isolating us from the road and the car. But at the same time, the cars do get better and any isolation we suffer from the increased luxury and drivability in the cars, I think the increased G forces from better acceleration, handling, and braking (as well as wonderful engine tones) more than make up for it.

As for the Z4, I think it is quite possibly the greatest roadster out there today. The exterior and interior are stunning and very true to a pure roadster. If you do not like the Z4 then that is completely fine (I know a lot of people do not like it), but I think BMW was wildly successful with this new Z4 roadster, especially when compared to the Z3. It would be an absolute privelege if I ever had one sitting in my garage - of course, not sitting for too long as cars are meant to be driven. [thumb]

Z4/Z4M Coupe to debut in Sept at Frankfurt

2

2

2

2

Senior Member

Senior Member

2

2

Senior Member

2

2

2

Senior Member

Senior Member

2

Senior Member

2

2

Senior Member

2