The 5-series has stumbled in a way uncharacteristic for a new BMW....

Wallie05 · Oct 19, 2004

deutsch100 said:

Sure Deutsch, you lead the way. I think a million is a reasonable number for an automotive coup. [;)]

Section8: I got you're stats right here. I was looking up JD Power ratings for old 5 series (2001) when I found this list that details the ratings for the past several years. Take a look at 2004s numbers, then compare them to the rest. Notice a trend (hint: see mechanical and body/interior quality)??

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/bmw/5series/100000543/ratings_jdpower.html

Also, I posted another link from a couple months back that showed that the number of problems per vehicle (also monitored by JDP) with respect to BMW has been increasing for the past few years. Matter of fact, all the major German makers are experiencing the same problem, while the Japanese continue to outpace everyone and with American cars quickly "catching up."

If this get heated enough, I'll have to go and fish it out, but I don't have enough time right now.

HornyHornet · Oct 19, 2004

Style & design are both very subjective. What makes a quality product? Again, subjective. If you ask ten people, you are going to get ten different answers. Us all her in this forum share one common interest, and thats passion for BMWs. Why BMWs? If I ask EVERY member here, ultimately I will have ONE answer. That answer is well known without saying (hint: Driving Dynamics). No other "luxury" vehicles come close to providing the sporting feel of dedicated performance machines. Have newer BMWs lost their soul? Have they given in to comfort over pure driving pleasure? As Tool Fan, Section 8, and Wallie have stated, NO they havent. So, are these newer BMWs any less of what BMW truly stands for? IMO, no. They are, have always been, and will continue to be "The Ultimate Driving Machine" (sooooo cliche). As enthusiasts, we should first judge by what they have become, then by what they look like. Does form follow function, or vice versa? If its the latter, then yes, lets get to complaining. Please, dont get dumb statistic numbers get in the way of honestly realizing what is really the heart of the matter here. Are BMWs still BMWs?

vlad · Oct 19, 2004

Bryan330i said:

Radical?

I think I can think of a few better words to use over radical....
1. crappy
2. disillusioned
3. naive
4. abase
5. chagrined
6. trashy
7. cheesy
8. garish
9. gaudy

Better stop here and leave a few adjectives for the rest of you to use!

Wallie05 · Oct 19, 2004

vlad said:

Hey, I got some good ones. Can we invent adjectives? Oh, I'll just use hyphens. Anyway, how about:

1. Asian-esque (or Asian-ish??)
2. Japanese-inspired

[duh]

aNoodle · Oct 19, 2004

HornyHornet said:

Style & design are both very subjective. What makes a quality product? Again, subjective. If you ask ten people, you are going to get ten different answers. Us all her in this forum share one common interest, and thats passion for BMWs. Why BMWs? If I ask EVERY member here, ultimately I will have ONE answer. That answer is well known without saying (hint: Driving Dynamics). No other "luxury" vehicles come close to providing the sporting feel of dedicated performance machines. Have newer BMWs lost their soul? Have they given in to comfort over pure driving pleasure? As Tool Fan, Section 8, and Wallie have stated, NO they havent. So, are these newer BMWs any less of what BMW truly stands for? IMO, no. They are, have always been, and will continue to be "The Ultimate Driving Machine" (sooooo cliche). As enthusiasts, we should first judge by what they have become, then by what they look like. Does form follow function, or vice versa? If its the latter, then yes, lets get to complaining. Please, dont get dumb statistic numbers get in the way of honestly realizing what is really the heart of the matter here. Are BMWs still BMWs?

I don't know...active stearing, idrive, less driver focus & road feel, radical design, 2 new SAVs, quality issues...who knows where their direction is headed.

Wallie05 · Oct 19, 2004

HornyHornet said:

BMWs aren't BMWs JUST because they drive well. The reason the brand is so compelling is because it's NOT just another good driving car--they're plenty of gret hanlding/driving cars around. But few, if any, put (or have put, should I say) together the complete package.

The reason a BMW is a BMW is because it combines several key features that serve to make the brand so well known, such as luxuriousness, safety, practicalty, realiability, build quality, and of course, performance/driving, all into one neat package that few car companies can rival.

When I was looking at cars, I didn't just look for a car that had great driving dynamics. If that's all that I cared about I would've bought an S2000 or WRX (or even RX-8 or 350Z nowadays). But I wanted a car that was safe, luxurious, built-well, and good-looking too. So if I (subjective, I realize, but that's pretty much the nature of this whole thread) find one area or more to be lacking in a BMW, I'm disappointed. And I don't walk away from an ugly Bangle-mobile and say, well, at least it still drives well. The engineers design that part, but what about the part that other drivers and passengers see and feel?? In this sense, I would argue that form is as important as function, and prior to the recent 5/6/7/Z4 "debates," separating the two (form v. function) wasn't even an issue.....

finally330i · Oct 19, 2004

Wallie05 said:

What about the crappy interior of the G35? When I was shopping for a new car I looked at the G35 (which was the car I thought I wanted), a new TL, and the CPO 330i I ended up buying. I was moving from a 1995 V6 Camry. Aside from a more powerful engine the G35 has nothing on a E46 330i. There is a world of difference between the two and I would have been embarrassed to come home with a new G35 with a crappy plastic interior not much better than my old Camry. The TL was very nice but the ride of a BMW has not been beaten by the Japanese yet. Aside from Lexus, what other Japanese car maker makes a 5 sized car that competes.

IMO it has to do with your age when you develope a passion for BMWs. My kids who are ten and seven think the new 5 series is "sweet". However, when they are old enough to plunk down $50,000 on a car I bet they'll think it should be nicer than it is.

tool fan · Oct 20, 2004

Wallie05 said:

Wallie, Wallie, Wallie.......I did not single you out specifically about iDrive or any other issue besides the sales figures. PLEASE read what I wrote before you criticize it. I said a REP from BMW AG in Munchen......German 5series sales (in Germany..GERMANY) are up 52% from last YEAR...said absolutly nothing about last month. Whether Herr Dirk Schneider is full of shit or not I don't know, I do believe what a representative from the BMW Headquarters in Munich says as far as European (German) sales figures goes.

I did dispute Toms figures at first because I was not aware of the fact that European sales VS. U.S. would be such a difference. And the fact that the touring 5er is taking over the streets here in Germany...had no idea that it had not even been launched in the U.S. yet.

BMW's largest market is...........survey says...c'mon now you can figure this one out. Germany!!!!!! followed by the rest of Europe. Again this is from the mouth of Herr Schneider at BMW AG in Munich..BMW Headquarters.

Lets keep this peaceful and just agree to dis-agree. I will state one more time for the record that I owned a 98 528i and I own a 2004 530i and in ALL aspects (IN MY OPINION) the 2004 5series is a better built, better quality, more solid, and way better performing automobile than my 98 528i. MY OPINION.
LOOK AT IT AND LOVE IT, "CAUSE IT AIN"T GOIN" AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Tom · Oct 20, 2004

tool fan said:

Ahem...don't forget [thumb]

tool fan · Oct 20, 2004

Right-oh Tom. As soon as BMW Munich figures out what they are going to do about my iDrive, and I decide whether or not to trade for the M3, I will be looking for rims. That does look nice though doesn't it?

Tom · Oct 20, 2004

tool fan said:

You bet it looks hot. [:)]

Abdoman · Oct 20, 2004

wallie05 said:

I see your list has only sports cars, hmmm comparing sports cars to a sedan. That makes sense. You should at least compare cars in the same class.

Wallie05 · Oct 20, 2004

Abdoman said:

Last time I checked, the WRX had 4 doors.....[shake]

Notice I said practicality was an issue, too?? [clap]

Abdoman · Oct 20, 2004

Driving dynamics doesn't just mean great handling. It includes so many other factors- diriver position, power, acceleration, body roll, seats, the feel of the steering wheel, the way the car handles bumps, etc....................

If you really think that the cars you listed have the same driving dynamics as a Bimmer, I'd tell you to lay off the crack pipe. Sure, those cars are fun but they don't even compare.

Wallie05 · Oct 20, 2004

Abdoman said:

Oh...the crack pipe. Good one. [rolleyes]

And yeah, I'd say the WRX, 350Z (and it's G35 derivative), and RX-8 all have great driving dynamics, e.g. power, acceleration, body roll. In fact, in many of this areas, these cars beat their BMW competitors. Is a G35 coupe faster than a 330Ci? Is a G35 sedan (or WRX) as surefooted as a 330i--I'd say so. But like I said, none of them has the complete package, and I'm not talkig just the driving package like I already thought I clarified. [bmwdance]

If that means I'm on "the crack pipe." So be it; I don't hold your opinion in any high regard and your observations are as lame and worthless as your responses.

You're just mad because I didn't include an AWD Ford Contour--I mean X-Type--into my little comparo.... [:o)]

[kick]

Abdoman · Oct 20, 2004

wallie05 said:

Well, you can hurl insults all you want, but you level of intelligence shows in your response. Driving an S2000, a 350Z or a RX-8 is driving a sports car (the only worthy WRX is the STI which you fail to mention). Light, fast and cheap.

The 3 series is in a totally different class of vehicle, a totally different driving experience. Keep smokin the crack!

Mad about the X-Type, No because I can understand that it's not in the same class!

finally330i · Oct 20, 2004

Wallie05 said:

Your right the G35 and the WRX don't have the complete package. The WRX is for young men between the ages of 16 and 25. It may have 4 doors but it is not a sedan.

With the negative personal attacks is this going to be like the manual vs auto thread?

Abdoman · Oct 20, 2004

Wallie 05 - look, I'll explain so hopefully you can understand.

1st class
3 series - sedan made to haul a family
5 series - larger sedan made to haul a larger family
G35 - made to haul a family (4 door version)

2nd class
S2000 - two seater sports car
350Z - two seater sports car
RX - 8 - two door sports car that seats four

Class 2 cars are sports cars, not luxury sedans
class 1 cars are not specifically made to be a sports car
people that shop for cars in class one, don't normally shop for cars in class 2
when you compare them, it's like comparing a Ferrari to a Rolls Royce. Each of the these vehicles is built for a specific reason.

What BMW does is create a car that has incredible driving dynamics for what they are - sport sedans.

Wallie05 · Oct 20, 2004

Abdoman said:

Oh, so now you’re attacking my intelligence and I'm the guy hurling insults? That’s rich. I won’t even debate this issue with you because it’s clear your wits are no match for mine. I fear that by engaging in the type of discourse you so desperately seek I would only make myself look as foolish as you. I would attempt to enlighten you, but doing so would be like trying to explain the use of alliterative verse in W.H. Auden’s Musée des Beaux-Arts to a kindengartner…

Hmm, so much for your careful explanation. It’s as pathetic as your posts are laughable. What part don’t you understand: the part about the "complete package," or the part about the "complete package"?? [read]

Silly, silly (Abdo)man, you don’t really have a dictionary, do you??

HornyHornet · Oct 20, 2004

Wallie,
Has BMW lost the complete package?
All the cars you mentioned are made to handle well FIRST; the best being the S2000 (subjective).
With the exemption of the M models, BMWs are made to haul passengers FIRST. Because they handle so well too makes them unique, complete.

The 5-series has stumbled in a way uncharacteristic for a new BMW....

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