What's the difference between an automatic and manual transmission?

[Pink_Floyd]

Ok, so what makes a manual transmission different from an automatic? Is there even an answer to this question? What is a clutch?

Lots of people have been very hateful towards SMG and especially Steptronic. So what makes a transmission manual or automatic?

Does a manual transmission simply have a clutch? And if so, does it matter if it's a foot operated or hydraulically operated one? You could argue that an automatic transmission also has a clutch. Is a viscous fluid clutch not a clutch after all? So you only have a manual if you have a clutch that is operated by your foot? I'm confused. Is it the act of deciding what gear your in or is the act of disengaging a mechanical clutch with your foot? Maybe that's it...

Let me hear your thoughts... I know we probably won't get any definitive answers, but who cares.

-- And for the record, this is what I want to talk about:

Standard 6 speed manual with foot operated mechanical clutch.

SMG 6 speed with a hydraulically operated mechanical clutch.

Steptronic with a viscous fluid clutch (torque converter).

-- Where do you draw the line?

 

[epj3]

...Are you being serious??? If so, Sorry...

www.howstuffworks.com

All clutches are foot operated, and most use hydraulics. An automatic transmission does NOT have a clutch, it has a torque converter. COMPLETELy different. That's like saying a tire and a wheel are the same thing. I'm not going to go into detail becuase it's too much basic stuff to describe. Go to that link and read up.

 

[Pink_Floyd]

Thanks for replying. It's nice to see that you're being smart ass even though you knew what I meant by using the simple terms that I did. All clutches in car transmissions use hydraulics. The difference between foot operated and hydraulic is obvious. I'm sorry if I didn't say electro-hydraulic or mechanically operated hydraulic piston.

By standard definition a clutch is something that grasps or connects something. You want to tell me a torque converter is not a form of a clutch?

 

[Militant-Grunt]

Here Im smart ass number two.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch.htm

 

[brahtw8]

Standard 6 speed manual with foot operated mechanical clutch.

SMG 6 speed with a hydraulically operated mechanical clutch.

Steptronic with a viscous fluid clutch (torque converter).

-- Where do you draw the line?

There are three categories here, not two.

Manual, Sequential Manual, and Automatic. Add CVT and you have 4. This is all just semantics anyway. You are never going to to end the occasional rips on SMGs for being autos, etc.

 

[panzershreck]

the difference in choice of manual gearbox vs. automatic / SMG is mostly a matter of opinion and special qualities one likes about each... obviously until SMG came along, manual gearboxes were faster with more control over the car with more power transfer through the drivetrain to the wheels in addition to *usually* more durability... SMG might still have the same power loss (dont know much about SMG) as automatics, but gives you the total control over gear changing... so now, its more a matter of choice as to what works better for different people (in my case, i can control a car much better with a clutch & shifter than paddles, and makes it more involved and fun at the end of the day), correct me if im wrong... but thats my general opinion

 

[///M SPEED]

ONE MORE TIME! SMG is not any form of an automatic transmission, far from it. The transmission does not have the "power loss" of an auto at all. To say you can control the car much better with a clutch & shifter than paddles is a false statement unless you have actually driven a car equipped with an SMG transmission for period of time. I am not talking about taking one on a test drive, I am talking about driving with one for over a month long period. It usually takes some time just to get use to the way shifting occurs with the SMG. Once you do, the shifting is this side of phenomenal. I am tired of people dismissing the SMG like it is some sort of quirk gimmick BMW has added as an option just for the benefit of gaining and extra $2500 off some unsuspecting individual. SMG is the real deal. Like I like to say:

Good enough for F1, good enough for me!

SMG II works quite well. When you use pure sport mode with traction control and DSC off, the shifting is unbelievable. It will snap your head back with force all the while never having to worry about a miss shift, which at over 100mph could be deadly to the car and yourself. You should really try it sometime.....

 

[///M SPEED]

You are never going to to end the occasional rips on SMGs for being autos, etc.

So true. It gets old though. What really burns my butt is most of the people making the said rips have never even driven a BMW equipped with SMG. I admit I am a die hard clutch (foot) and shifter guy myself, but after having the SMG II M3 I wouldn't hesitate to purchase the SMG (BMW's) again. To bad you not from around here braht, I would let you test it yourself. I am sure you wouldn't mind....

P.S. Have you ever driven an SMG BMW?

 

[brahtw8]

P.S. Have you ever driven an SMG BMW?

Yes, but I need more time in one (E46 M3) to really get a feel for it, and since I am still striving to improve my heel and toe technique, the SMG seems like cheating.

That said, an SMG M3 is hella-fun to drive . . .

 

[panzershreck]

ONE MORE TIME! SMG is not any form of an automatic transmission, far from it. The transmission does not have the "power loss" of an auto at all. To say you can control the car much better with a clutch & shifter than paddles is a false statement unless you have actually driven a car equipped with an SMG transmission for period of time. I am not talking about taking one on a test drive, I am talking about driving with one for over a month long period. It usually takes some time just to get use to the way shifting occurs with the SMG. Once you do, the shifting is this side of phenomenal. I am tired of people dismissing the SMG like it is some sort of quirk gimmick BMW has added as an option just for the benefit of gaining and extra $2500 off some unsuspecting individual. SMG is the real deal. Like I like to say:

Good enough for F1, good enough for me!

SMG II works quite well. When you use pure sport mode with traction control and DSC off, the shifting is unbelievable. It will snap your head back with force all the while never having to worry about a miss shift, which at over 100mph could be deadly to the car and yourself. You should really try it sometime.....

no need to get into an argument about it... as i already stated that i knew little about SMG... not sure what the possibility of missing a shift at or above 100mph has anything to do with which is better...

 

[///M SPEED]

It does take a while to get use to. Even now I find myself learning as I go, but man once you get it down the shifting gets smoother (I'm not talking about Town Car smooth) and you begin to find the advantages over the clutch. Also, just the thought of the SMG with paddle shifting makes some people hesitant to even try to drive it. They think it is too complicated and don't want to ruin a 50k car. It is actually funny at times. One thing is, I don't have to worry about my wife wanting to drive it. She actually doesn't like the car too much. I love it that way....

 

[///M SPEED]

Sorry panzershreck, didn't mean to make it sound like an argument. The statement about miss shifting had nothing to do with which transmission is better. It was a statement of an added benefit of a SMG transmission nothing less and nothing more.....

 

[andreyiv]

All I can say is: it will always be a personal preference. I personally still didn't have all the fun with a manual so I would stick with the manual but I would never diss SMG. You can't say that something is better than something else period, just because you are used to it more or prefer it. Also, you can compare it to lets say sport package or something on a car, for one person it is too stiff and for another it is just perfect. My point being, you can say something SUCKS because you happen to dislike it.

 

[bmwrocks]

I am not afraid to admit that I am envious of anyone that has SMG in their BMW. Someday I will have it.

It is not humanly possible to shift a BMW manual gearbox faster than SMG II can do it. Period end of story. I don't know the timing numbers but I remember reading them and it is sick fast.

///M SPEED, it must be nice to be you getting to shift that thing day-in day-out.

 

[xLibelle]

I am not afraid to admit that I am envious of anyone that has SMG in their BMW. Someday I will have it.

It is not humanly possible to shift a BMW manual gearbox faster than SMG II can do it. Period end of story. I don't know the timing numbers but I remember reading them and it is sick fast.

///M SPEED, it must be nice to be you getting to shift that thing day-in day-out.

i didnt really have anything to say about this subject but had to interject with a correction.
It is infact, possible to shift faster than SMG. Dont ask me from personal experiance but ive seen this argument many times before... i have a video that is pretty hot evidence that manual is the shit, IF you know what youre doing.


....hmm, i think the link was posted here once too....

 

[Wallie05]

So true. It gets old though. What really burns my butt is most of the people making the said rips have never even driven a BMW equipped with SMG. I admit I am a die hard clutch (foot) and shifter guy myself, but after having the SMG II M3 I wouldn't hesitate to purchase the SMG (BMW's) again. To bad you not from around here braht, I would let you test it yourself. I am sure you wouldn't mind....

P.S. Have you ever driven an SMG BMW?

What I want to know is how the hell did this guy get 278 posts on here without knowing the difference between a manual and an automatic??

Oh yeah, and for the record, SMGs suck ass and you're a p*ssy if you buy one. [headbang]

I know this from experience; I have driven an SMGII Z4 when my father was considering--he wasn't serious, just wanted to check it out--getting it (HORROR!!) on his Z4. The fact that it even has a FULLY AUTO mode should give you a clue about it's being more similar to a manual than an auto. Hint: it's not. Where's the auto button on my 5-speed; can I just stop shifting when I don't feel like doing so, think not?!? One more thing, even the SMG II is jerky when in auto mode. I will admit that downshifts are smoother, but who cares, autos downshift smoother too and I like that little punch when downshifting.

And I would mind if I bought an M or Z series BMW that my mom could drive......

 

[Average Jae]

hmm.. manual: you shift manually
auto: it shifts automatically and has a torque converter. there i drew the line
course audi and bmw had to come up with their own psudo autos.. i suppose they get their nice names like SMG and CVT.. i think we should just leave that at that

now can we hijack the thread and call it the I LOVE SMG!! I HATE SMG!! thread? j/k as if THAT hasn't been done before... *sigh* but i'm jumping in anyway

One more thing, even the SMG II is jerky when in auto mode. I will admit that downshifts are smoother, but who cares, autos downshift smoother too and I like that little punch when downshifting.

i didn't know smg ii was offered in the Z4, thought it was M only, esp since the z4 has the $1500 option, not the 2400 smg ii offered on the M. but correct me if i'm wrong.

SMG is jerky in auto mode, because it's a manual that's trying to act like an auto. autos are supposed to up and down shift smoother (or so says the reviews) i don't ever remember smg touting itself as a smooth as butter auto shifter, and one shoudl know going in what they are getting.

of course there are pros and cons to SMG. you will, with anything that detracts from the purity of the manual. but it seems at least w/ SMG, BMW has gotten closest to retraining the sprit of the the manual, while combining the comforts of the auto, esp in high traffic. do i like it? the jury's still out on it, as i haven't even sat in one, but i woudl def love to see it in action.

SMG ii at fastest mode will shift in 80ms. a time that even the top notch drivers can achieve on a good day, maybe even surpass it, but at least w/ smg ii it's consistant. the good ole first SMG on the other hand, from comments across the board is waste of money! again, no first hand exp, so i dun know.

 

[epj3]

i didnt really have anything to say about this subject but had to interject with a correction.
It is infact, possible to shift faster than SMG. Dont ask me from personal experiance but ive seen this argument many times before... i have a video that is pretty hot evidence that manual is the shit, IF you know what youre doing.


....hmm, i think the link was posted here once too....

I'd like to see that... SMG uses a straight gearing setup - exactly like a motorcycle transmission (exactly the same actually.) One little click and it shifts... no synchromesh or anything to worry about.

 

[///M SPEED]

What I want to know is how the hell did this guy get 278 posts on here without knowing the difference between a manual and an automatic??

Oh yeah, and for the record, SMGs suck ass and you're a p*ssy if you buy one. [headbang]

I know this from experience; I have driven an SMGII Z4 when my father was considering--he wasn't serious, just wanted to check it out--getting it (HORROR!!) on his Z4. The fact that it even has a FULLY AUTO mode should give you a clue about it's being more similar to a manual than an auto. Hint: it's not. Where's the auto button on my 5-speed; can I just stop shifting when I don't feel like doing so, think not?!? One more thing, even the SMG II is jerky when in auto mode. I will admit that downshifts are smoother, but who cares, autos downshift smoother too and I like that little punch when downshifting.

And I would mind if I bought an M or Z series BMW that my mom could drive......

[slap] "SMG sucks a$$", hahahahaha. Your p*ssy comment shows just how immature you are. You take one test drive with your dad and you think you have it all figured out. It takes a lot longer than that to get use to it and fully understand it. BTW, the Z4 does not come with the SMG II gearbox it only comes with the SMG I, which (IMO) is not worth the price of it. SMG I and SMG II are like night and day. Your statement about it having a "FULLY AUTO" mode really show just how much you THINK you know about SMG, because there isn't a "FULLY AUTO" mode that come on the SMG gearbox. What you call "FULLY AUTO" is in fact a manual gearbox trying to emulate a "FULLY AUTO" transmission. This is just an added feature for those who wish to use it.

People who buy the SMG II M3 are not buying it for the auto mode you speak of. I have maybe used that feature once, maybe twice and the only reason is when I am on the phone, eating, or something of that nature, which is quite useful then.

The fact that it even has a FULLY AUTO mode should give you a clue about it's being more similar to a manual than an auto. Hint: it's not.

Your knowledge of SMG II is showing through again. "Hint: it's not", your absolutely correct! It's not anything close to an auto. Hmm, the transmission is so bad (in your opinion) that BMW deems it fit enough to improve on it and add it to a 500 hp V10 M5! WOW, BMW needs to do their homework and realize that the gearbox they are going to entrust their new V10 monster is junk and those F1 guys over at Williams have no clue that a sequential gearbox they use "sucks a$$". They need to change their mentality that you have to have a clutch pedal to drive some of the fastest cars in the world. What was BMW thinking? They must have missed that while at the design board....

One more thing, even the SMG II is jerky when in auto mode.

WOW, maybe you are starting to understand the SMG II? Ever wonder why it is "jerky" when in auto mode? Hmmm, maybe because it is a manual gearbox emulating an auto gearbox, ever thought of that? You need to read up on the subject. BMW had no intention of trying to make it smooth like a Town car. If you don't like the SMG gearbox that's fine, no sweat of my back, however when you come on this board and start calling people rude names because of the choices they make on the options they get on their cars that's not fine especially on a topic you obviously know nothing about. Next time keep your rude comments to yourself. One can express his/her opinions in a civil manner, for that is how it's done on this board......

P.S. Sorry for the Hijack Pink.....

 

[Wallie05]

One more thing, even the SMG II is jerky when in auto mode. I will admit that downshifts are smoother, but who cares, autos downshift smoother too and I like that little punch when downshifting. QUOTE]

i didn't know smg ii was offered in the Z4, thought it was M only, esp since the z4 has the $1500 option, not the 2400 smg ii offered on the M. but correct me if i'm wrong.

I'm pretty sure it was the SMGII; but I'm guessing on this one, the Z4 was a 2004 model we (my father and I) drove and I just figured the system offered on the Z4 was the same as the new and "improved" SMGII version for M3s. Either way, the damn thing sucks.

Furthermore, just because the SMG is capable of shifting gears faster than a manual/human doesn't mean the actual car is faster. Check out the article below; it mentions that even though the M3 CSL is lighter and more powerful than the regular M3 it (the SMG-equipped M3 CSL) is still SLOWER than 6-spd M3??

"MORE MUSCLE, BUT...: The 'but' is because the standard BMW M3 is faster off the mark with its manual gearbox and a normal clutch."

So why bring up the "it shifts faster than a human can" arguement if it doesn't actually make the car faster?? [thumbd]

Again, I repeat: the SMG sucks and is for posers who want to "go through the motions" but don't want to commit to the real thing.

Teach your wife how to drive a stick..... [driving2]