Saturn Ion Red Line

frolf · Feb 10, 2004

as long as we are all squared away, and once again one big loving happy family then i'm ok with everyone. yeah, and it was my bad for coming off high and mighty, my mistake.

what about the Lincoln LS though? I remember when they tested that against the 540 and A6 and stuff, and it sort of helds its ground, but riding in them reminds me of a full sized lincoln town car....

jrt, your thoughts?

jrt67ss350 · Feb 10, 2004

My thoughts? About the LS? Don't really have any - I've never looked at or ridden in/driven a Lincoln LS. I think it's a bland car compared to the 540 or A6, at least as far as styling goes. I do think the Jag S-type is a sweet car - same platform/chassis as the Lincoln LS.

I'm fine, too. Happy to be here. Just providing my opinions. [^]

frolf · Feb 10, 2004

yeah, i think the jags are SUPER hot, especially in that british racing green.

dzervit · Feb 10, 2004

I leased a 2000 LS. I F*%KING loved that car. It was the best handling Ford product (at the time), had excellent power (off the line was weak since they had to change out the rear end gearing to get better mileage) and pulled strong even into triple-digit speeds. The LS is definitlely a sleeper car - but its hard to find an owner that will actually exploit the cars capabilities.

While I still am a big fan of the LS (the '03 refinements are huge), I'm NOT a fan of the price now. When I leased my nicely equipped LS in August '02, the car was 32k on the x-plan and 37k MSRP. Just TRY to find an '04 LS south of 40k. That's what made the LS so special - it could run with the big boys but was almost 20k less. How could you go wrong?

Bryan330i · Feb 10, 2004

Justin has some good points.

I think there are a LOT of good cars out there and I may change my mind about Saturn but what I have seen so far, at least in the past, I thought they were a bit dangerous which I think is irresponsible on the part of a manufacturer.

And take the IS 300, someone just made a post on another link so I was reading some information from R&T. I was surprised how well it performed. It was not at all what I thought and does not reflect what I have read on this board.

I guess these perceptions stick with us.

For me I don't think I will ever push my car to its limits, ever. Not in handling or acceleration. I do not really race-race. And I have probably never done any better than 0-60 7, or perhaps even 8 or 9.

Wadula · Feb 10, 2004

i don´t think that it is a question of being insecure or not when it comes to getting beaten by a saturn. i would be pissed because it did beat me in the first hand. additionally to that comes that it is a saturn, an isuzu, a daihatsu, a vw or whatever.

im my eyes these companies may very well build fast cars, but that does not make them good. so why not talk about it? there is more to a car than being fast. there is style, image, quality just to name a few. an an ion certainly does not meet at least 2 of them.

sidenote: those who know me can confirm that i am sure enough no bmw-blinded man. i am a big fan of the WRX for example. that car has a certain image, style and power. a saturn has only power (and only in this single case)
being open to other brands is exactly my idea of the automotive world but yelling at others for a saturn just does not quite make it.

jrt67ss350 · Feb 10, 2004

dzervit,

Glad to hear the LS is a nice car and performs well. Not glad to hear about the price increase, however. I just haven't had any personal experience with them.

Tim,

I'm not yelling at others for not liking the Saturn. Don't misunderstand my position. I'm just pointing out that some of the "flaws" in the Saturn (and American cars in general) that have been pointed out here are simply the product of undue stereotypes and preconceptions. There are different cars in the world because there are different people in the world. The Saturn is not right for everyone just like a BMW or WRX is not right for everyone. Yes, I agree that there is more to a car than power, style, quality, and "image" alone. A car is a blend of these things. However, these things are very subjective and are up to the individual person to decide on. To you, the Saturn may only have one of these things; it may have all of them from another's perspective. I, for one, tend towards the latter as long as you consider the car from within it's class. I like the styling of the Ion. Even the non-Redline naturally aspirated Ion has pretty good power for it's class and includes things like a 5 speed auto (the only one in this automotive segment) if you get an auto (the coupe auto is a CVT tranny that I hate). The build quality is definitely a heck of a lot better than the previous SL - it is a very solid car. I've spent quite a bit of time looking at them - I was thinking about buying one myself. You just can't compare it to a BMW or an Audi or a McLaren, because it isn't any of these cars and isn't supposed to be.

We all have different opinions about cars, and that's the way it should be!

Wadula · Feb 10, 2004

justin, i understood your post qite well. the rason why i wrote yelling at others is because your post came across pretty harsh, at least in my book. maybe that was a wrong reception on my side.

as for the topic, you make the exact perfect point. saturns maybe getting better and advancing in their class, but they are still miles away and that is exactly the flaws so many people mean. and as far as i am concerned, not all US cars are bad. i like the navigator very much. and i do like some DC models such the crossfire. i did not hear more bad things about that car as i heard bad things about any new car on the market.

well i think we are all on the same page, more or less at least. [hihi]

epj3 · Feb 10, 2004

I will never ever in my life buy an american car until they meet the standards of other car companies (ie Toyota.)

Expected life of a Japanese car isnt even talked about, becuase you CAN make them run forever. American cars have a life expectancy of about 150k if you are lucky.

dzervit · Feb 10, 2004

epj3 said:

You really should open your eyes and take a hard look at domestics. And for every Japanese car you show me with over 150k, I'll show you 3 domestics with over 150k. You can make almost ANY vehicle run forver. Routine maintance, good fluids, well behaved driving habits and regular check-ups will make any modern vechile run until you choose to get a new one. My 99 Expedition has nearly 100k and runs like it only has 40k on it. My bro's 91 Suburban is pushing 200k, my friend's cousin... ... it could go on and on and on...

Bimmerlife · Feb 10, 2004

American cars are reliable, but I was talking about the quality and craftsmanship, like the interior material used in this cars are just terrible. One of my friend has a Corvette and he thinks there is not a better/faster car, but the car is just a piece of junk. It is a '99 C5 and the leather is cracked in every possible plase, the center console is cracked, the feel of the material is very cheap. The body panels are not straight, and when you drive it, it squeaks everywhere around you. My car is 10 years old and I don't have a single crack on the leather.

dzervit · Feb 10, 2004

I'll agree that many domestics choice of materials isn't the greatest... but you get what you pay for. I'm not thrilled with an Accord/Camary base interior. Lincolns have rich interiors, and the New F-150 Lariat has one of the nicest & well assembled interiors out there. GM still seems to be in the dark when it comes to interior comforts/ergonomics/materials. Corvette interiors have always stunk, as is there ability to stay held together with that unforgiving suspension. Did the guy ever care for his leather and properly maintain it? Not likely. Neglect will ruin any make/model.

I beat the living hell out of my 95 T-bird, 97 F-150, 99 Expy, and 2000 LS.. all held together and I rather enjoyed each interior (except all the factory sound - that had to be ripped out and replaced). Have you looked at Ford lately?

EDIT: If you can't tell, I'm not only a Ford fan, I'm also a client. BMW isn't the only auto maker on the planet that can make a quality vehicle for a specific purpose... I'm stepping off my box now.. really.. seriously... I'm not kidding... [:D]

EDIT #2: Does the C5 even use real leather? Anyone?

Bimmerlife · Feb 10, 2004

dzervit he takes care of the corvette, maybe not like I can take care of my car, but he does. I know. Its just the leather is so cheap. It looks more like plastic. However corvette is a nice car but imagine it would be build in Germany? That would be a beast.

Jeep is manufacturing Jeep's for European market in Graz, Austria and those are a lot better than the ones manufactured here.

My Parents use to have a 1988 Dodge Caravan and that was jus trubble everywhere. They also had VW Jetta 1.6D in Europe with only few mechanical problems, When they sold it the car had almost 200000 miles. The funny thing is that the odometer was designed only to 99999km. So it got overturned 3 times [hihi]

BMWdude · Feb 10, 2004

dzervit said:

For every 3 domestics you show me with over 150k, I'll show you 3 Japanese cars with over 150k that actually RUN [rofl]

[joke]

dzervit · Feb 10, 2004

My finance had a 02 Grand Am with 'leather'. It was very 'plastic' like as well. I think GM uses a really bad form of leatherette and markets it as real leather. But that's a few models out of god knows how many. I'm not going to hold my dislikes against the Camary against all Jap cars, nor would I hold my dislikes for the Beetle against all German cars...

Bimmerlife · Feb 10, 2004

Speaking of Japanese cars [rolleyes]

I read this article in Mototrend last year. There is a guy who has a Honda Accord LX and he has 1.5 milion miles on it. Im not kidding. I have all the Mototrends. I will find it and post it in the future.

My friend has one too and he has 140,000 miles and he dont take care of the car at all. Just change the oil sometime [paranoid]

. But the car runs pretty good.

Bmw 325i 7803 · Feb 10, 2004

epj3 said:

Ugh, 88 Lincoln Town Car 238k and still running strong, sorry but the 150k is more of an individual opinion than a fact.

epj3 · Feb 10, 2004

dzervit said:

Okay but lets compare how many gallons of gas were used driving the hunk of junk to a dealer to get repaired. I wont argue, we have had 3 GM lemons in the past 10 years, and all the dealer did was treat us like shit, especially Me. You might say it was becuase I was 17 at the time, but then again, the BMW dealer treats me with utmost respect. Interesting, eh?
The build quality and the actual designs of the cars is absolutely SHITTY. New GM's use PLASTIC intake manifold gaskets!!!! That was a fu*king $1000 repair out of our pockets 2 weeks after the warranty was up. GM wont admit fault and said it was not a design defect, but when you take a look onine, there are a LOT of people who had the problems. Not a design defect my ass, if it werent a design defect, why is it a totally different part and different part number of what they replaced it with!?!?

epj3 · Feb 10, 2004

Also, maybe a newer car like a ford focus will last 300,000 miles, but lets compare the quality of that after 300k miles to something like my car when it hits 300k miles. Sheet metal tends to hold up longer and better than glad-ware body panels.

Bimmerlife · Feb 10, 2004

BMW

epj3 I agree with you.

The thing is that BMW builds cars with passion. Its not just about making money and this is true. You can agree or disagree. US is all about making money. Build a product for as little money as possible. This is not how they are thinking in the BMW. I understand that BMW has problems too, but hey those are just parts designed by people and people make mistakes. But no car company invented that many new features like BMW. [:)]

I started with BMW's as a little kid when we we're traveling to Germany and I saw this BMW's passing as at lightnig speed and I said to myself "thats the only car I ever want" and there you go 10 years later got a BMW, and now Im ready to get a another one. [:)]

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