Pontiac is selling more Aztecs than GTOs!!!!
- Thread starter Kirby
- Start date
ACTUALLY YES I DO OWN A HOLDEN MONARO (but with higher spec than the GTO) which is esentially the same, thats why im defending the car so much. I personally know what the car represent and its qualities, it bugs me when someone bags it simply because it has a pontiac badge. Look I didnt come here to bad a BMW, I admit they are great cars (yes even for the money).
First of all, higher hp per liter isn't the most important factor and really doesn't mean much at all in this case. Second of all, since the GTO is a bigger engine with more torque and lower hp/liter, it produces MORE horsepower and MORE torque than the BMW at any rpm. Third, the 330Ci has a 400lbs weight advantage, which is HUGE. Fourth, specs (0-60 time) don't necessarily determine what's going to happen in real life. The GTO's engine is a whole new world of power, 350hp and 225hp are just not even comparable at all. The 0-60 time difference of only 0.6 seconds is not due to an inefficient engine on GM's part (except for the fact that the 5.7 liter beast weighs more than the 3.0), but more on diminishing returns (the more horsepower you have, the less significance it has) and 400lbs of extra "fat".
It's plain stupid to compare a 225hp car to a 350hp car and say "oh it performs nearly as well". Our whole auto industry revolves around horsepower and that is our universal measurement of power. I'm basically saying that the whole "BMW power is better than xxx power" is complete and utter bullshit because I know that's what you're tring to say. Last time I raced a 330Ci, it was absolute rapage and I have no doubt that a 350hp V8 GTO could out-accelerate a 330Ci like nobody's business.
It's plain stupid to compare a 225hp car to a 350hp car and say "oh it performs nearly as well". Our whole auto industry revolves around horsepower and that is our universal measurement of power. I'm basically saying that the whole "BMW power is better than xxx power" is complete and utter bullshit because I know that's what you're tring to say. Last time I raced a 330Ci, it was absolute rapage and I have no doubt that a 350hp V8 GTO could out-accelerate a 330Ci like nobody's business.
It's not your comments that are invalid, it's your conclusions. You're biased and close-minded beyond belief and therefore your opinion doesn't have much credibility. Just yesterday you accused the Corvette sitting in the showroom of not having body panels lining up, and now the GTO. Even if the car DID have body panels that didn't line up, I don't think the dealerships would want to use those vehicles as their "showroom" cars. Salesmen usually don't know much about cars (merely enough to sell the car), but they can tell the difference of when a car looks right or wrong.
Well, that's what I'm saying. When they sell vehicles in the 'states, they cut corners like you wouldn't believe - exactly how bmw cuts corners for their cars in germany (Not so much cut corners as it is not including what us americans expect).
I wouldn't even compare it to a bmw, if PONTIAC hadn't.
http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/redlight_256.wmv
They have the GTO pulling up next to a BMW. I think it's an m3 - but it looks like a regular 3 series... hard to tell becuase the normal 3 series have a side marker that, in a blurry video, looks the same as the side vents on the bmw.
I didn't say I doubted the performance either, and I said I think it's the best looking car of any american car company right now. I think it looks a lot better than the vette, but that's just me.
Ellusive, until you go through a few new GM's, experience their true quality (as in "36,000 mile plastic" interiors), experience their service (any dealer), and then you see outside the box and realize that the foreign cars are much better. I won't speak for all of the new cars, but they still look and feel shoddy. My uncle works for GM (Working on the R&D of the 40 volt vehicle electrical systems soon to be used...) in Indiana and had a brand new GTO about 3 months ago. He said it was fun, but wasn't anything special. He said it rattled, didn't feel very precise while in corners, and probably compared to a mustang cobra than anything else in terms of overall driveability.
He gets insane discounts through GM... but guess what his daily driver is? It's german... and begins with an A....
I wouldn't even compare it to a bmw, if PONTIAC hadn't.
http://www.pontiac.com/gto/images/redlight_256.wmv
They have the GTO pulling up next to a BMW. I think it's an m3 - but it looks like a regular 3 series... hard to tell becuase the normal 3 series have a side marker that, in a blurry video, looks the same as the side vents on the bmw.
I didn't say I doubted the performance either, and I said I think it's the best looking car of any american car company right now. I think it looks a lot better than the vette, but that's just me.
Ellusive, until you go through a few new GM's, experience their true quality (as in "36,000 mile plastic" interiors), experience their service (any dealer), and then you see outside the box and realize that the foreign cars are much better. I won't speak for all of the new cars, but they still look and feel shoddy. My uncle works for GM (Working on the R&D of the 40 volt vehicle electrical systems soon to be used...) in Indiana and had a brand new GTO about 3 months ago. He said it was fun, but wasn't anything special. He said it rattled, didn't feel very precise while in corners, and probably compared to a mustang cobra than anything else in terms of overall driveability.
He gets insane discounts through GM... but guess what his daily driver is? It's german... and begins with an A....
First of all, it's not an M3. Second, I'm telling you that because the marketing idiots created a commercial that loosely compares it to a 3 series, then that's not the car's fault. Believe me, the GTO fits into a different niche than the 3 series - it's a different car with a different purpose and should not be compared to the 3 series. Most of the people who would buy a GTO would never even consider purchasing a 3 series BMW.
Irregardless, the GTO would smoke the crap out of that 3 series coupe.
Irregardless, the GTO would smoke the crap out of that 3 series coupe.
I will also say that my family has never owned anything but GM vehicles. My BMW is the first foreign car anyone in my family had ever bought. So, I have grown up experiencing their "true quality," as you put it.
My parents have kept every one of their GM vehicles that were bought new until at least 140,000 miles - namely a 1981 or 1982 Oldsmobile 98, a 1989 Chevy S-10, a 1988 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, a 1994 Pontiac Bonneville SSE, and a 2002 Chevy Impala LS, all bought new. And since I started high school, I have done all of the maintenance and repairs on all of the vehicles they have had since then - the S-10, the Pontiac, and the Impala. We have had precious few problems with any of these vehicles all the way to 140,000 miles. Problems we have had have been minor problems. With the exception of the S-10, none of these vehicles were shoddily designed or built. The S-10 really can be excused, because we knew it was a cheap vehicle to begin with - only $8000 new, but my dad still drives it to work every day without any problems whatsoever.
Yes, often GM service is lacking. However, I've been treated like crap numerous times when dealing with the service department at the BMW dealer in my parents' home town. BMW is not immune to poor service, my friend.
Both my parents and I have been very happy with our GM vehicles. I love my BMW, and it does have a different feel - probably a little more solid in some respects, but I would never have a problem buying a GM vehicle in the future. Will I buy a BMW in the future? Probably. Will I buy a GM in the future? Probably. I fail to see the superiority of foreign cars in almost all cases. And I have the perspective to see outside of the box
My parents have kept every one of their GM vehicles that were bought new until at least 140,000 miles - namely a 1981 or 1982 Oldsmobile 98, a 1989 Chevy S-10, a 1988 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, a 1994 Pontiac Bonneville SSE, and a 2002 Chevy Impala LS, all bought new. And since I started high school, I have done all of the maintenance and repairs on all of the vehicles they have had since then - the S-10, the Pontiac, and the Impala. We have had precious few problems with any of these vehicles all the way to 140,000 miles. Problems we have had have been minor problems. With the exception of the S-10, none of these vehicles were shoddily designed or built. The S-10 really can be excused, because we knew it was a cheap vehicle to begin with - only $8000 new, but my dad still drives it to work every day without any problems whatsoever.
Yes, often GM service is lacking. However, I've been treated like crap numerous times when dealing with the service department at the BMW dealer in my parents' home town. BMW is not immune to poor service, my friend.
Both my parents and I have been very happy with our GM vehicles. I love my BMW, and it does have a different feel - probably a little more solid in some respects, but I would never have a problem buying a GM vehicle in the future. Will I buy a BMW in the future? Probably. Will I buy a GM in the future? Probably. I fail to see the superiority of foreign cars in almost all cases. And I have the perspective to see outside of the box
Thanks I didnt know that ![[hatchet]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_hatchet.gif "Hatchet [hatchet]")
YES i knew it was foreign. I've been into cars WAY too long to not know that. I am NOT basing my OPINIONS on just what I've heard. Again, i'm not saying anything about the DRIVEABILITY. They wouldn't let me drive one if I asked.
Elussive, it has nothing to do with the dealer. I'm talking when you deal directly with GM is when you have the problems. I've had NO problems with BMW. I'm not happy with the bmw dealer up here, but I still got treated with a lot more respect than I ever did at ANY GM dealer.
When you walk in, sit in a $72,000 car, and the dealer comes up and asks if you need help, you say no, and he says "Well, theres coffee over there by the tv if you want any" just being curtious, that is pretty damn good. When I go to MUTIPLE dealers asking for the GM limited slip additive, I always get hounded by the dealers, then at the parts department they act like becuase I'm not 30 years old, I don't need to actually recieve respect.
I wish you would all stop telling me "its not that bad of a car". I never EVER said it was, in fact I said multiple times (if you would READ) that I think it is the most desireable american car. yes, I know it's foreign in the aspect that its design was based off a foreign cars, but they redesign certain parts for the US, and I'm not talking saftey, bumpers, lights, etc.
Anyways, it's just my opinion. I think GM has shoddy quality. Everything on every GM I have been in, driven, etc, has been sub par for how expensive they are. They have the quality of a dodge/chrysler for a higher cost.
YES i knew it was foreign. I've been into cars WAY too long to not know that. I am NOT basing my OPINIONS on just what I've heard. Again, i'm not saying anything about the DRIVEABILITY. They wouldn't let me drive one if I asked.
Elussive, it has nothing to do with the dealer. I'm talking when you deal directly with GM is when you have the problems. I've had NO problems with BMW. I'm not happy with the bmw dealer up here, but I still got treated with a lot more respect than I ever did at ANY GM dealer.
When you walk in, sit in a $72,000 car, and the dealer comes up and asks if you need help, you say no, and he says "Well, theres coffee over there by the tv if you want any" just being curtious, that is pretty damn good. When I go to MUTIPLE dealers asking for the GM limited slip additive, I always get hounded by the dealers, then at the parts department they act like becuase I'm not 30 years old, I don't need to actually recieve respect.
I wish you would all stop telling me "its not that bad of a car". I never EVER said it was, in fact I said multiple times (if you would READ) that I think it is the most desireable american car. yes, I know it's foreign in the aspect that its design was based off a foreign cars, but they redesign certain parts for the US, and I'm not talking saftey, bumpers, lights, etc.
Anyways, it's just my opinion. I think GM has shoddy quality. Everything on every GM I have been in, driven, etc, has been sub par for how expensive they are. They have the quality of a dodge/chrysler for a higher cost.
Nobody is telling you "It's not that bad of a car" but the whole time you've been like "OH THE INTERIOR FELT SHITTY AND OF TYPICAL AMERICAN QUALITY AND THE BODY PANELS DONT LINE UP BLAH BLAH BLAH". You're saying "It's the most desirable american car" but that's just a general statement. I don't think you like the car at all.
For an american car, it is probably one of the only ones I would buy. I told you the interior felt shitty and body panels didn't line up becuase they DIDN'T. that's not opinion! I saw it with my own two DAMN EYES. Not sure how it can be argued?!?! I know not all are like that, but you can see so many little imperfections. The little imperfections that would drive me nuts.
Why are these 2 cars being compared again? I missed that point, but I did skip a few pages of posts (yeesh..). Oh wait, it's the 'advertisers' doing that, right? You don't believe everything a salesman (or TV ad) spouts I hope!!
They are totally different - vast difference in engine, weight, design, and handling. Unless you're at the drag strip who cares if one is .5 sec more than the other. It would 'matter' if the cars had approx the same size engine, weight - you know all the things that would make a car 'similar'.
.5 sec does not constitute a 'blow out' btw, you can spend less than $1000 to erase .5 secs, even in a BMW..
They are totally different - vast difference in engine, weight, design, and handling. Unless you're at the drag strip who cares if one is .5 sec more than the other. It would 'matter' if the cars had approx the same size engine, weight - you know all the things that would make a car 'similar'.
.5 sec does not constitute a 'blow out' btw, you can spend less than $1000 to erase .5 secs, even in a BMW..
Yeah, I agree 100%. I made that point on one of the previous pages (you must have skipped that one ![[;)]](/images/smilies/wink.png "Wink [;)]")
). They fill a different segment of the market and were designed with different intents. People who buy the GTOs aren't comparison shopping the 3 series, and the 3 series should not be compared to the GTO like it's in an equal segment of the market. It's that one traffic light commercial that has everyone up in arms comparing the GTO to the 3 series.
). They fill a different segment of the market and were designed with different intents. People who buy the GTOs aren't comparison shopping the 3 series, and the 3 series should not be compared to the GTO like it's in an equal segment of the market. It's that one traffic light commercial that has everyone up in arms comparing the GTO to the 3 series.
You know what I remember seeing that commercial now, and thinking it was pretty silly.. I watched the review of the GTO on some show on speedworld a few weeks ago (Red one, in the rain on the track that day). It's a good car to breathe life back into a classic muscle car (with today's technology).
If you can't stand on your own car's laurels - slander someone else's? [slap]
If you can't stand on your own car's laurels - slander someone else's? [slap]