Consumer Reports 10 Best Cars - 9 are Japanese
- Thread starter Kirby
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I see what you are saying and I agree with that, but then Consumer Reports ends up saying all these wacky things about cars that just make no sense. They review all cars as if it is a "point a to point b" tool, but a BMW M3 (for example) is much more than that. They review cars for the "average joe" so I think they should stick to reviewing "average joe" cars. Your thoughts?
Bmw 325i 7803 said:
... btw How's the torque steer in the TL? ![[:D]](/images/smilies/biggrin.png "Big Grin [:D]")
In other words, unless I need to launch the car hard to embarass a 330i at a stoplight, the torque steer is largely absent.
Of course, I believe you were not really asking about the TL so much as insulting it with your torque steer comment . . .
![[nono]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_nono.gif "No No [nono]"){kind=icon}
. . . but that doesn't really bother me. I chose the TL because it was FWD, not despite it.
I think they can review anything they want. Sometimes average people want to drive an M3, and they may actually care about gas mileage, cupholder size and other things that enthusiasts do not.
From my perspective, the problem is not that Consumer Reports reviews such cars, but that enthusiasts get mad when such cars don't score well in the Consumer Reports analysis. The solution is to understand that Consumer Reports is not an enthusiast publication and not focused on enthusiast concerns, and thus is not really the best tool for an enthusiast to use when evaluating a performance automobile.
To me, insulting consumer reports is like ripping on an M3 because of its lack of towing capacity. Apples to Oranges.
From my perspective, the problem is not that Consumer Reports reviews such cars, but that enthusiasts get mad when such cars don't score well in the Consumer Reports analysis. The solution is to understand that Consumer Reports is not an enthusiast publication and not focused on enthusiast concerns, and thus is not really the best tool for an enthusiast to use when evaluating a performance automobile.
To me, insulting consumer reports is like ripping on an M3 because of its lack of towing capacity. Apples to Oranges.
brahtw8 said:
Not an issue on the street, where I drive at 7/10s or below. It is really only an issue if you want to launch the car hard.
In other words, unless I need to launch the car hard to embarass a 330i at a stoplight, the torque steer is largely absent.
Of course, I believe you were not really asking about the TL so much as insulting it with your torque steer comment . . .. . . but that doesn't really bother me. I chose the TL because it was FWD, not despite it.
In other words, unless I need to launch the car hard to embarass a 330i at a stoplight, the torque steer is largely absent.
Of course, I believe you were not really asking about the TL so much as insulting it with your torque steer comment . . .
. . . but that doesn't really bother me. I chose the TL because it was FWD, not despite it.
![[;)]](/images/smilies/wink.png "Wink [;)]")
rather admired, hardly embarrassed... I figured being in WI you wanted a FWD car for winter performance, each to his own.
Your original comment does not sound like a statement designed to point out a shortcoming of FWD. I find it hard to believe that your motive was to educate me about torque steer.
And if that was your motive, I find it somewhat presumptuous to think that you are in a position to educate me about the throttle-induced steering characteristics of a car that I have driven for 30,000 miles.
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I do not think you are being honest about your post now that I have put you on the defensive. I think you meant to talk a little sh!t, albeit in a good-natured way, which is fine.
BTW, I don't care about winning stoplight races. If I did, I'd have an 800-1000 hp. blown V8 muscle car for fun instead of an NSX.![[burnout]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_burnout.gif "Burnout [burnout]")
And if that was your motive, I find it somewhat presumptuous to think that you are in a position to educate me about the throttle-induced steering characteristics of a car that I have driven for 30,000 miles.
I don't mean to belabor the point, but I do not think you are being honest about your post now that I have put you on the defensive. I think you meant to talk a little sh!t, albeit in a good-natured way, which is fine.
BTW, I don't care about winning stoplight races. If I did, I'd have an 800-1000 hp. blown V8 muscle car for fun instead of an NSX.
It wasn't, why would I be educating you about how a car you drive handles... Notice I said "I was curious as to YOUR experiences with the torque steer" meaning I was asking you. And yes my original statement was a response to your "bimmer owner insecurity" statement which was a broad attack in defense of "holy consumer reports" and it was done in a joking manner (which is why I used the grin smiley). Let me clarify this my motive was to poke fun, in a non-personal way at the TL. I'm not on the defensive or offensive, It was as blank a statement as yours. With that said you didn't put me on the defensive, all you did was inform me that you misinterpreted my post...
Edit: Now that I read the rest of your post...
Exactly what you were doing with the "BMW owner insecurity" remark (though I'm not sure it was in a good-natured way) so it goes right back at you... Anyway you love consumer reports and Acuras, and I couldn't care less about them, but I do love BMW's, the end.
Edit: Now that I read the rest of your post...
Exactly what you were doing with the "BMW owner insecurity" remark (though I'm not sure it was in a good-natured way) so it goes right back at you... Anyway you love consumer reports and Acuras, and I couldn't care less about them, but I do love BMW's, the end.
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That's the same way I feel about the CR car reviews. My parents have a subscription to CR, and I usually read the car reviews when I am at home. I would NEVER base a car purchase decision on those reviews, but then again, I fall more into the "enthusiast" category.
The thing that really discredits the CR reviews for me is the inconsistencies that demonstrate that they truly do review vehicles with bias. CR is notoriously foreign car biased - particularly Asian manufacturer biased. For instance, whenever Toyota comes out with a new model, they will immediately predict the reliability to be "Excellent." However, whenever any non-Asian manufacturer comes out with a new model they will withhold reliability predictions stating that the vehicle is "too new to predict reliability." If a new non-Asian car is too new to predict reliability, how can you possibly say you are unbiased if you readily assign a particular reliability rating to a new Asian car? Another example that demonstrates that CR's reviews are all about the brand name of the car and do not follow any genuine car knowledge: if I remember correctly, they gave a glowing review to the Toyota Matrix when it came out, but they disliked the Pontiac Vibe. These two cars are completely identical save for some minor changes in the exterior styling. They are mechanically identical (both have Toyota powertrains), and the interiors are completely identical except for the insignia on the steering wheel. If I remember correctly, they even predicted the reliability of the Matrix to be better than that of the Vibe. THEY ARE IDENTICAL CARS!!!! HOW CAN THEIR RELIABILITY BE DIFFERENT??? I'm pretty sure they gave the Matrix a glowing review. My friend bought one, and I have to say that that thing is the most underpowered, cheaply-build piece of crap I've seen in a while - I don't understand why anyone buys either of those cars. CR is all about the brand name - they let the parent company's country of origin influence their reviews.
They might provide unbiased reviews of toasters, but not on cars.
The thing that really discredits the CR reviews for me is the inconsistencies that demonstrate that they truly do review vehicles with bias. CR is notoriously foreign car biased - particularly Asian manufacturer biased. For instance, whenever Toyota comes out with a new model, they will immediately predict the reliability to be "Excellent." However, whenever any non-Asian manufacturer comes out with a new model they will withhold reliability predictions stating that the vehicle is "too new to predict reliability." If a new non-Asian car is too new to predict reliability, how can you possibly say you are unbiased if you readily assign a particular reliability rating to a new Asian car? Another example that demonstrates that CR's reviews are all about the brand name of the car and do not follow any genuine car knowledge: if I remember correctly, they gave a glowing review to the Toyota Matrix when it came out, but they disliked the Pontiac Vibe. These two cars are completely identical save for some minor changes in the exterior styling. They are mechanically identical (both have Toyota powertrains), and the interiors are completely identical except for the insignia on the steering wheel. If I remember correctly, they even predicted the reliability of the Matrix to be better than that of the Vibe. THEY ARE IDENTICAL CARS!!!! HOW CAN THEIR RELIABILITY BE DIFFERENT??? I'm pretty sure they gave the Matrix a glowing review. My friend bought one, and I have to say that that thing is the most underpowered, cheaply-build piece of crap I've seen in a while - I don't understand why anyone buys either of those cars. CR is all about the brand name - they let the parent company's country of origin influence their reviews.
They might provide unbiased reviews of toasters, but not on cars.
Whatever, the only things I would read about and pay attention to in magazines is reliability and overall consensus of the quality of a car. Otherwise I couldn't give two shits what they say. Same thing with audio products.. just becuase they have certain specs published doesnt mean they sound good.
The bimmer owner insecurity remark:
"The fact that so many people in this thread are getting bent out of shape over the article is rather amusing and reveals the insecurity some of you have about your bimmers".
The same can be said for all car forums. People love articles that are favorable to the cars they own and hate those that are not. I have simply pointed out my belief that CR is designed for the average car buyer, not the enthusiast, so it is a bit unfair to malign them for focusing on reliability, fuel efficiency and other more mundane aspects of car ownership.
Your conclusion that I love consumer reports is without merit. I have never subscribed to CR and do not plan to. I have NEVER said that CR's ratings are the final measure of a car. I don't buy my cars based on what CR says.
Although I haven't picked up CR in years, I do subscribe to Roundel, NSX Driver and Autoweek, and pick up random copies of Bimmer, Car, Classic & Thoroughbred, and a few others.
I have been a card carrying member of the BMW CCA for several years and I attend many of their events. Come the end of April, I'll be at Road America with the Windy City Chapter of the BMW CCA for a two-day HPDE, just one of serveral BMW CCA driving schools I plan to do at RA, Gingerman and Blackhawk.
That is what I call BMW love . . .
"The fact that so many people in this thread are getting bent out of shape over the article is rather amusing and reveals the insecurity some of you have about your bimmers".
The same can be said for all car forums. People love articles that are favorable to the cars they own and hate those that are not. I have simply pointed out my belief that CR is designed for the average car buyer, not the enthusiast, so it is a bit unfair to malign them for focusing on reliability, fuel efficiency and other more mundane aspects of car ownership.
Your conclusion that I love consumer reports is without merit. I have never subscribed to CR and do not plan to. I have NEVER said that CR's ratings are the final measure of a car. I don't buy my cars based on what CR says.
Although I haven't picked up CR in years, I do subscribe to Roundel, NSX Driver and Autoweek, and pick up random copies of Bimmer, Car, Classic & Thoroughbred, and a few others.
I have been a card carrying member of the BMW CCA for several years and I attend many of their events. Come the end of April, I'll be at Road America with the Windy City Chapter of the BMW CCA for a two-day HPDE, just one of serveral BMW CCA driving schools I plan to do at RA, Gingerman and Blackhawk.
That is what I call BMW love . . .
Wow, I didn't think posting this article would generate this much spirited debate, but it's good AS LONG as we play nice.
I agree with brahtw8 in that Consumer Reports is not geared towards the enthusiast, it's geared toward the average consumer who needs help buying a mass market product.
jrt67ss350 points out exactly what I was getting at when I posted crash tests results. In my opinion, if CR was doing proper justice and totally unbiased reviews, this should have been at least mentioned as safety shortcomings. Remember, this is interpreted as TEN BEST by the average consumer, but isn't safety something that should be factored also when talking about BEST? This should really be advertised as TEN MOST RELIABLE just like JD Powers says it.
I agree with brahtw8 in that Consumer Reports is not geared towards the enthusiast, it's geared toward the average consumer who needs help buying a mass market product.
jrt67ss350 points out exactly what I was getting at when I posted crash tests results. In my opinion, if CR was doing proper justice and totally unbiased reviews, this should have been at least mentioned as safety shortcomings. Remember, this is interpreted as TEN BEST by the average consumer, but isn't safety something that should be factored also when talking about BEST? This should really be advertised as TEN MOST RELIABLE just like JD Powers says it.
Consumer Reports is not always unbiased in all their reports, this has been claimed for years. But it's not a brand preference problem, it's a statistical sampling problem.
If you read the FINE PRINT in their annual review, the data is based on CONSUMER REPORTS MEMBERS feedback. Therefore, it is NOT a homogeneous sampling. In other words the study is inherently skewed BECAUSE CR readers fit a specific consumer profile, presumably mostly middle class. It does not ACCURATELY represent high income consumers, low income consumers, perhaps some ethnic groups, etc. who are not as likely to subscribe to the magazine, report their experiences, etc.
In simple terms, a Consumer Reports member might shy away from Hyundai in 2000 because of a horrendous 1998 report in the magazine. Therefore, subsequent observations are inherently skewed.
Note that this is not my theory, this has been discussed many times in the past abut CR.
If you read the FINE PRINT in their annual review, the data is based on CONSUMER REPORTS MEMBERS feedback. Therefore, it is NOT a homogeneous sampling. In other words the study is inherently skewed BECAUSE CR readers fit a specific consumer profile, presumably mostly middle class. It does not ACCURATELY represent high income consumers, low income consumers, perhaps some ethnic groups, etc. who are not as likely to subscribe to the magazine, report their experiences, etc.
In simple terms, a Consumer Reports member might shy away from Hyundai in 2000 because of a horrendous 1998 report in the magazine. Therefore, subsequent observations are inherently skewed.
Note that this is not my theory, this has been discussed many times in the past abut CR.
Imagine if they have a low budget and walk into the dealership asking to pay invoice... They'd be the perfect customer to unload the dealers "on-the-lot-ill-equipped-trash" on (and dealers do get quirky new cars and know it, hence the reason for the occasional below invoice "amazing savings" on leases and purchase specials). Then they can publish a bad review, or state that "Would be better with so and so options but too expensive"
In Automobile magazine they listed the 2004 ADAC- AutoMarxX member survey (this is in Germany) and the Japanese cars were listed 7 in the top 10 for customer satisfaction. BMW was 11th. Mercedes-Benz was 32nd and Audi was 26th. Amazingly Saab was 9th and Porsche 8th.
I guess Consumer Reports might not be that far off on the quality of the Japanese cars.
I guess Consumer Reports might not be that far off on the quality of the Japanese cars.
