Why don't most Porsches have Limited Slip Differentials?

epj3

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#21
Average Jae said:
after reading above posts, i remembered something. lsds are usually found in awd cars right? to provide the wheel w/ best traction all the power to get out of a situation. w/ a rwd, or fwd cars, is that as necessary?

the reason why i bring that up is back when last gen preludes came out, their SH model had what they call ATTS, active torque trasn system or something.. (dun know the acro, or if that' was even the name of the system.) and it was at first one of thsose sweet, you have to have it, features. it transfers all the power to the wheel w/ most traction. anyway when i read the review on it, basically the only time you can really benefit from the system is when the car is really pushed to the limits at the track, and in everyday driving, it didn't really do much to help. in fact i remember reading that it had some negative aspects to it also.

honestly, i don't know too much about it. what i know is, whether porsches have it or not, it still performs exceptionally well. so maybe they have something else in place, or it could be like the V-tec: honda promoted it, saying how great it is then showed it. now everyone has their variant, but it's not a huge marketing point anymore. (mainly because everyone has it.) so maybe porsche just isn't saying much about it?

and you guys are right. lsds trasnfers power, traction control limits the power, by engine management and controlling individual brakes.
LSD's can be on ANY car, an all wheel drive car is, in theory, 3-limited slip differentials. Honda wasn't the first with vtec - just first to make a big deal and make it popular. Same thing is like the car companies who put "4x4", "awd", or "ABS" stickers on the cars.

I couldnt imagine NOT having a limited slip. It's a DEFINITE requirement for my next car. If it's raining it's very nice to have, and in the snow its awesome. Limited slips were made big with muscle cars - they had differnet types (Justin (jrt...) could elaborate). They had viscous coupling, clutch-type limited slips, and more important for straight line - locking differentials. It came to market on RWD cars, so you'd get even MORE traction.
 
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#22
LSD is a mechanical device, it will send all the power to the wheel with traction thus for the purpose of acceleration.

Track control is for stability and will curtain power to the wheel by apply braking thus for the purpose of decelaration or at lease work against acceleration.

Guess what im saying is LSD is better for performance

I think we are saying the say thing but in different terms.
 
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#23
Well don't forget that Porsche's PSM isn't really a traction control system. It's a "I'm making you a better driver" system. It seemlessly makes adjustments to the braking (individually) and throttle so that the car follows the driver's intended course (based on the positioning of the steering wheel), and it does all this without letting you know that it's working. Volvo has a system just like this on the S60 R. When you're taking the twisties, it adjusts throttle and brake of each wheel and adjusts suspension to give you maximum traction through the turn, and to make sure the car follows the driver's intended course. I like the S60 R.
 
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#24
epj3 said:
Honda wasn't the first with vtec - just first to make a big deal and make it popular. Same thing is like the car companies who put "4x4", "awd", or "ABS" stickers on the cars.
yup, that was the point i was trying to make. just because you don't shout loudly about it, doesn't mean you don't have it. so i was imply that maybe porches do have their varient, they just don't make it a point to market it. then again, it'd show up in spec sheets rigth? i really dont' know.. (i think i'll be doing more to confuse than to enlighten in this topic, so i'll just sit back and read now.)
 

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#25
Average Jae said:
yup, that was the point i was trying to make. just because you don't shout loudly about it, doesn't mean you don't have it. so i was imply that maybe porches do have their varient, they just don't make it a point to market it. then again, it'd show up in spec sheets rigth? i really dont' know.. (i think i'll be doing more to confuse than to enlighten in this topic, so i'll just sit back and read now.)
Porshce has it, i think they call it a vario-cam system.
 
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#26
I think that most of the old Porsches had LSDs. It seems that with the introduction of a PSM they stopped using LSDs, all the models with PSM don't have LSDs, can this be some sort of compatibility issue? BMW seems fine putting an LSD and DSC on the M3... Porsche is lagging behind...
 
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#27
You guys should go to the Porsche web site and checkout the new 911 and then visit the Photo and Multimedia Gallery. View the last Film called "Split Second". This is an amazing video, by the way. And when the light turns green, they show the Porsches launch (one is a 911 Carrera and the other is a 911 Carrera S) and both vehicles lay down very even pairs of skid marks. So whatever system they have (I don't think it's PSM, I'm assuming there is an LSD there that Porsche just does not talk about), it is definitely putting the power to the ground properly.
 
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#28
MrElussive said:
You guys should go to the Porsche web site and checkout the new 911 and then visit the Photo and Multimedia Gallery. View the last Film called "Split Second". This is an amazing video, by the way. And when the light turns green, they show the Porsches launch (one is a 911 Carrera and the other is a 911 Carrera S) and both vehicles lay down very even pairs of skid marks. So whatever system they have (I don't think it's PSM, I'm assuming there is an LSD there that Porsche just does not talk about), it is definitely putting the power to the ground properly.
That is exactly why they don't have LSDs, because they lay down two strips of rubber. If you see burnouts done with an M3, or other cars with LSDs, you'll see that only one tire is burning out and the other one leaves no tread at all. I've searched on every possible website to find out whether or not "regular" Porsches have LSDs, and I'm pretty sure they don't. With 295s in the back though, I wouldn't be too worried about it.
 

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#29
Default said:
That is exactly why they don't have LSDs, because they lay down two strips of rubber. If you see burnouts done with an M3, or other cars with LSDs, you'll see that only one tire is burning out and the other one leaves no tread at all. I've searched on every possible website to find out whether or not "regular" Porsches have LSDs, and I'm pretty sure they don't. With 295s in the back though, I wouldn't be too worried about it.
You're wrong!!!! A limited slip makes BOTH WHEELS SPIN. Its called a "limited slip" becuase it LIMITS the SLIP of one wheel - so it'll make BOTH wheels spin. An open diff makes just one wheel spin.

My car has a limited slip and when I lay down rubber it lays down two marks, like it should. If a car lays down TWO marks, that means BOTH wheels are working and you're getting more power to the ground, if ONE tire leaves a mark and the other doesnt, that means you aren't getting all available power to the road.
 
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#30
Default, you have it the other way around. My car has a LSD and when I do a drop-clutch start, I leave two even tracks behind me. LSD's make sure that both wheels are putting power to the ground evenly.
 
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#31
Then how come with all M3 videos I see they have it leave one skidmark and it has an LSD, and the Porsches leave two marks when they don't have one? I'm confused I'm gonna test this out with someone else's car.
 
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#32
Huh?? All the M3 videos I've seen, the M3 leaves TWO skid marks on the road. And what I'm trying to argue is that the Porsche 911 probably DOES have an LSD, but Porsche sees no reason to advertise it. Porsche probably assumes that their customers know the car just comes with it.
 

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#33
Every porsche I've ever seen has left two marks. Please show me a video where it doesnt leave two marks. The 944 has a limited slip, i HIGHLY doubt an expensive 911 would NOT have one. I agree with emile - porsche doesn't have to advertise this, just like they dont have to advertise PERIOD - only porsche advertisements I ever see are LOCAL or are for their preowned (aka 'previously-obsessed-over' as they say [hihi])
 
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#34
2 skid marks = lsd present? 1 skid mark = no lsd?? tell me you have a good way to explain this, beside what you posted above.

btw eric, thanks for letting me know [thumb]

not to add to the confusion, but i thought lsds made sure all the power makes it to the wheel that needs it, ie one w/ the grip, taking power away from the one slipping: limiting the slip. in the case of a dropped clutch start, both wheels don't have traction, so it gets split evenly, doesn't it? if traction control were present, it would kill the excess power by braking and killing the engine output. thus you turn that guy all the way off, before laying down fat STRIPS or rubber! or you'll just look like an idiot [rofl] but we're not talking about that.
 
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#35
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16273

On number 8, they mention that "8. right now there is no real way how to retrofit the 20 mm chassis with the LSD on PASM equipped cars." What do they mean by this? Don't all regular Porsches come equipped with PASM? Also I've looked on Cars.com and they don't mention the Porsches have LSDs, but they're pretty unreliable with information as it turns out... I'll keep searching.
 

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#36
Average Jae said:
2 skid marks = lsd present? 1 skid mark = no lsd?? tell me you have a good way to explain this, beside what you posted above.

btw eric, thanks for letting me know [thumb]

not to add to the confusion, but i thought lsds made sure all the power makes it to the wheel that needs it, ie one w/ the grip, taking power away from the one slipping: limiting the slip. in the case of a dropped clutch start, both wheels don't have traction, so it gets split evenly, doesn't it? if traction control were present, it would kill the excess power by braking and killing the engine output. thus you turn that guy all the way off, before laying down fat STRIPS or rubber! or you'll just look like an idiot [rofl] but we're not talking about that.
It would only get split evenly if you had a locking differential. Most limited slips are between 25% - 80% lockup, meaning it CAN send anywhere from 25 - 80% of the torque to the non-slipping wheel. Both wheels will still spin - they always will, but with a limited slip, it'll take torque from the one wheel and give it to the other. It doesnt SLOW the wheel, just sends engine power to the other one.
 
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#38
Remember the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" ? The 2 guys were acquitted because the getaway car had an LSD and left 2 skid marks :)
 
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#39
The 4WD system used by the 964 Carrera 4 of 1989 was one of the most advanced designs for the time being. It was derived from the 911 Carrera 4x4 racer which won Paris-Dakar rally in 1984, but the experienced learned from the 959 supercar also helped. In fact, Porsche described it as a simplified version of 959’s PSK system.
The system employed 3 differentials plus a multi-plate clutch. The epicyclic gear centre differential normally sent 31% to the front axle and 69% to the rear. Although it didn’t have 959-style variable torque split, the torque split is not fixed either. A multi-plate clutch incorporated with the centre differential would intervene whenever ABS sensors detected wheelspin at the rear wheels, hence sending more torque to the front wheels. This made the Carrera 4 more sophisticated than the contemporary pure-mechanical Audi quattro system.

The rear differential also incorporated a similar clutch acting as a limited slip differential. Again, the clutch is controlled by computer which got information from ABS sensors in individual wheels. Therefore the rear end of the Carrera 4 could hardly loose grip.

However, the Carrera 4 was far from popular. It was generally criticised as "over-corrected" the flaws of the tail-happy 911, transforming the car into an understeerer. The understeer was particularly severe when pushing the car to the limit, thanks to the large amount of torque sending to the front axle. Therefore Porsche designed a completely different system in the 993 Carrera 4.

In contrast to the 964, the 993’s 4-wheel drive system was rather conventional and simple, but it actually performed far superior in real world. Instead of epicyclic differential and mult-plate clutch, it used a simple viscous-coupling LSD as centre differential. To most FF car, viscous-coupling means understeer, but for the rear-wheel-drive-based 911, it means very much loyal to the Carrera 2’s character yet provided superior grip when needed.

To make the viscous-coupling always engaged the front wheels, the rear tyres were made marginally smaller in diameter, enhance established a small speed difference between the drive shafts to front and rear. With the speed difference, the viscous liquid normally transferred 5-15% torque to the front axle, which was much less than the 964’s system. In abnormal conditions, that is, whenever one axle lost grip, the viscous-coupling LSD may send up to almost 100% torque to the other axle.

Both the center LSD and rear LSD were now pure mechanical, but clever electronics was used in the newly-added ABD (Automatic Brake Differential). Again, ABD was simple yet effective. It was just a program, sharing all the hardware with ABS. Whenever rear wheels spin, it braked the spinning wheel thus the rear differential would send more torque to the other wheel. It was particularly useful for extreme conditions such as on snow, while LSD covered most normal conditions.

The 993's system weighed only 50 kg, that’s just half of its predecessor. Energy loss was also halved. It made the 993 Carrera 4 nearly as quick as the RWD version. Production cost was reduced as well.
 


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