VW Phaeton

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#41
What is it?
2003 Volkswagen Phaeton

What's special about it?
Is the world ready for a $50,000+ Volkswagen? The volks at VW sure do hope so, as they unveiled the 2003 Phaeton, the company's first entrant into the full-size luxury sedan class. At just about 200 inches in length and 74.8 inches in width, it compares with other such full-sized luxury vehicles as the Audi A8, Infiniti Q45 and Lexus LS 430.

Three powerplants await to propel the aluminum body of the Phaeton: the standard 3.2-liter V6 with 237 horsepower and 228 pound-feet of thrust, coupled with a six-speed manual tranny or an optional Tiptronic automanual. The flagship is a 6.0-liter W12, comprised of two V6 chummily intertwined, making 415 horsepower and 398 pound-feet of torque managed by a five-speed auto. Europe will also have a choice of the 5.0-liter V10 turbodiesel with 309 horsepower and an astounding 542 pound-feet of twisting force; this will be the most powerful diesel engine available in a passenger vehicle and will be mated to a six-speed automatic. There's no word on availability of the diesel here in the U.S. With the W12 comes VW's 4Motion all-wheel-drive system with a Torsen differential, optional on the front-wheel-drive V6 versions.

The Phaeton rides on a much-touted pneumatic air suspension system that allows the driver to set a preferred ride height. For travel on rough roads, the vehicle can be heightened by an inch, while the car hunkers down 0.6 inches when it's traveling at a speed of 100 mph or more (it can top out at more than 180 mph). Four damper controls for shocks and springs are available, to be chosen at the driver's discretion -- base, comfort, sport and sport2. VW claims that the Phaeton is the most torsionally rigid sedan in the world.

Volkswagens are already known for their beautiful interiors, but the Phaeton aims to go above and beyond with an acre's worth of wood and hide. Three kinds of rear seats are available; all can control the front passenger seat, as can be seen on a Jaguar Vanden Plas. Standard is a fixed three-person bench seat. There's also a six-way power adjustment system that comes with air-cooled seats and a massage option. Also, it could be equipped with two seats that each have a 10-way power adjustment with memory and an easy-exit feature. A four-zone climate control system makes its debut, allowing for each passenger to travel in his own cocoon of comfort.

Such options as navigation system, premium audio systems, telephones, a TV, an automatic distance control, a heated steering wheel, a solar sunroof, a keyless lock and ignition system, and a tire pressure monitor will be available. Standard safety systems include four-wheel disc brakes with ABS, ESP, EBD, traction control and brake assist. Eight airbags provide protection for the occupants in case of a collision.

Service will be centralized, with all repair inquiries going to the service center in Wolfsburg and includes a delivery service for temporary replacement cars (always a Phaeton!) and a 24-hour service center.

Why should you care?
Volkswagen maintains that it's not trying to move the image of its cars to become an upscale brand. Instead, it's trying to maintain its current customer base, the kind who are upwardly mobile and may be switching to "other" German marques as they move into the next income tax bracket. The world will always have a market for high-end cars; the question is, will wealthy consumers pay a hefty chunk of cash for a downmarket marque? The vehicle will be built at the Phaeton-specific plant (they call it the Transparent Factory — no, the bathrooms aren't really transparent, but you can watch your personal vehicle being assembled) in Dresden, Germany, which, coincidentally, is also the building site of the Porsche Cayenne. It will be available for sale in spring of 2003.
 

Bmw 325i 7803

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#43
suntigen said:
I drove a Phaeton for four hours two weeks ago.

I have to say I like the car... but I didn't like it $70+K worth.

I think VW is making a big mistake. First with the Toureg ($50+K) and now with the Phaeton (up to $96K).

It has a very luxurious feel when you drive it around town (I was fortunate enought o drive it in San Francisco), and it definately is going up against the Mercedes S-Class or the BMW 7-Series... NOT the BMW 5-Series.

Many of the features on the car are "interesting"... for example, there are no air blowers for the climate control (unless you purposly turn them on, and then they are revealed behind the dash trim by a motorized door)...

There is an adjustable suspension (like the Toureg) which can raise or your lower you car in a speed sensitive manor or manually (I adjusted to Sports Suspension, and it lowered an inch).

The reason I think the Toureg and Phaeton are mistakes, is the market expectes VALUE from VW. The Jetta, Golf, Passat, Beattle, Eurovan, GTI all have one thing in common... 20-somethings want them. They want them because they deliver extreme value for their price segment.

The Toureg and the Phaeton are aimed at graduating 20-somethings (30 or 40 somethings), and cost more to show for it... but isn't that what Audi is for? It would serve VAG much better (IMHO) to "sex up" the Audi platforms (the A6 may be the most boring looking car ever produced), and leverage the brands that have been in the world market for the last 40+ years.

VolksWagen = People's Car (auf Deutsch). This is the line we all could afford. Even as a first car

Audi = luxury sports sedan. This is the line we all yearn for when we can afford it. Put the Toureg and the Phaeton in this brand, change the styling. Improve the A4/A6/A8 styling, and put your racing and touring heritage into this brand... You don't see VW at 24 hours at LeMans do you? You don't see the VW North American racing series do you?

Anyhow... that;'s my $0.02. Nice car. Horrible brand positioning... too costly (zu teuer). Buy an S-Class.

- matthewk

I still stick to my previous idea, shared by codex. The Phaeton was created so VW executives didn't have to drive the passat to meetings and auto shows. That was its sole purpose, however VW figures why not place it on the market as well, afterall they are salesman.
 
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#44
VW just carries the name volkswagen, but no more the intention to be one. it is no more uptodate to thin kabout VW that way. i wonder why so many people actually do express ideas that got that way? the golf sure enough is no entry level anymore. VW made a big step forward and i like that.

As we were talking about the touareg, i am impressed how little of you obviously know how good that car sells. Especially during my last skiing vacation i saw a ton of them. Even more than X5´s, M-classes or any kind of range rover. It seems to me as if especially the touareg outruns the upclass models by far at the moment. And, not that it really matters as nobody really uses it, the VW can actually climb hills. that car has really really good off road capabilities.

as for the phaeton, i like that car. in my books it is actually the nicest one VW has in program. And see what you get for the money. the car seems to be build in very good fashion. the one time i had the chance to have a ride in it was really imposant.

i wouldn´t say that VW should not have built those cars. if they don´t suit you, it´s okay, but there are many buyers outthere who think the car is worth the money. well, i second that.
 
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#45
Wadula...I like the car very much. My only question is will people pay the price for a Volkswagen, especially here in the US where I am not sure people buy quality for quality or a brand marquee where quality is secondary in many instances in the purchasing decision.

Brand and premium brand status have such high value here it sometimes becomes difficult to measure in monetary terms. So it is not the actual car and quality that would concern me, but rather, how brand perception is valued in terms of a $70's+ price tag.

I even wonder if to some degree that is why the “//M” is held to such high regard here in the US where it is used more freely on “//M” package cars elsewhere in the world. That is, BMW knows the premium brand attributes and values in the US and knows the importance on not diluting this “//M” value here. Who knows, just something I thought about.
 
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#46
sure i could follow you bryan. and i didn´t mean to fight your point of view.

the status of being a premium brand does not come over night. companies such as BMW and mercedes needed to work their way up. today there are brands on the market that, 20 years ago, nobody would have considered to be upper class cars. i am thinking of lexus and infiniti for example. they are good cars with a good reputation. some how they had to start to get there and i think that VW is going that way now. sure, they are of another budget but the system might be the same.

it needs time to gain reputation and to gain the desired access to certain market segments, but without a first step you´ll never move. we´ll see if the phaeton will be a success in the US, here in germany it is at least not a loss by now.
 
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#47
Hey Wadula...I did not think your were arguing my point. I did question the Touareg at first but now I would say that it would be my first choice in the price range. I think a lot of people underestimate Volkswagen and they are the people that would never buy anyway, and probably not any car at that price range. Those that know something about German cars are the people that buy and know what Volkswagen is all about. If they don't let perceptions of others get in the way the car should sell.

I agree that you must take action and move forward to progress and they need to be given credit for that.
 
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#49
Wadula said:
exactly...now all we can do is wait and see if it sells. [hihi] [thumb]
I think it is already selling. As I said in a previous post, I saw about three of them in one night, the other day when it was snowing, and I see one just about every day now. It is absolutely shocking, because if I could afford a $70K vehicle, you DEFINITELY won't see me in a VW dealership.
I would rather have the new Audi A8 L...it has a classier and nicer look to it, and Audi is a better brand than VW. And I agree with you guys who said that the Touareg and Phaeton definitely shouldn't be VW's (too expensive for VW's image of being "the people's car").
 
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#50
I have been reading up a little more about this and some analysts are already calling the Phaeton a failure. I think this is premature but I guess they are talking in terms of financial recovery for R&D and covering capital expenditures involved for the introduction.

Volkswagen has fallen short of sales predictions by two-thirds [:0] of expectations/predictions. Volkswagen has also decreased sales predictions for the future by staggering percentages.

It is still hard to say because analysts are very critical.
 

vr6Cop

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#51
Bryan330i said:
I did question the Touareg at first but now I would say that it would be my first choice in the price range.
That is exactly what VW wants. I'm a life-long VW man (thus the s/n) and currently own 4 GTI's and one 525iT. I will never own a Phaeton on a cop's salary, but that is OK. This car is good for the company.

I've sat in and crawled all over 2 Phaetons. They are everything that they are supposed to be. They are aimed at the 7-series and high-end Mercedes crowd. They are aimed at the top-of-the-line Lexus & Infinity buyers. My local dealership has had 3 so far, and sold one of them. They sold a V8 to a BMW owner who was also looking at the new 7's. He picked the Phaeton because of value in price. The VW offered a lot of really nice standard features that made it rise above the 7, especially for the price. Whether it is a mistake to put it up against the A8: time will tell. Both are nice cars, and VW is trying to break into the high-end market. They started with the Touareg, and the Phaeton followed. It is all part of a big-picture marketing plan.

Someone asked why doesn't VW just start a high-end offshoot company like Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus or Nissan/Infinity. Sorry, mi amigo, but if you look in your automotive family history book, you'll notice that VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) was the first company with an up-market brother. They started out separately in the early years, then were brought together. Waaaaay before any of the Japanese companies started their deals.

The Phaeton is not a car for a Passat owner to step up to. That is what the Touareg is for. It was brought out for 2 reasons. First, to not only compete with the luxury SUV market, but to beat it in features and affordability. There are several levels of trim that all offer features comparable (and in some cases better) than the Lexus, Infiniti, Land Rover, M-Class, X5, etc, etc. for a comparable or better price, depending on which engine you want. (BTW - be watching for the V10 diesel that delivers over 300HP and 500ft-lbs of torque, coming soon) Secondly, the Touareg was introduced to bridge the gap in price to cut down on sticker shock for the Phaeton. The Touareg has been a success in sales and reviews. It has also proven, without a doubt, that VW can compete in the luxury market and win, which opens the door to higher-end, more exclusive buyers. The big-picture marketing plan is that the high-end success will draw more customers in to the lower-end (Golf/Jetta) and mid-range (Passat, Touareg) sales based on real and perceived brand quality.

There is some brand loyalty among people (me included), but even high-end customers will compare-shop and look for the right features at the right price. The Phaeton was not built to sell a million cars a year, it is a very limited-run car. It will succeed in what it is planned for.
 
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#52
Welcome to the forum, Vr6Cop. [:)]
The Touareg is definitely a really great SUV with a really great price tag. I personally have three problems with it, though: First, the styling is too "cute" for me. It just doesn't really strike as much of a luxury SUV (on the outside), although it is definitely in that category and does look nice. Second, the performance. It is a bit heavy at 5,086lbs for the V6 and 5,300lbs for the V8. I think VW should definitely try to trim down the weight because even the V8's 0-60 time of 7.6 seconds (according to vw.com) isn't that impressive although I'm sure it's very adequate....I would just like something closer to the 2004 X5 4.4i's 0-60 time of 6.8 seconds, or a more Cayenne S-like time of 7.2 seconds.
As for the Phaeton, it seems like a really great car. My only hesitation is that you pay like $70K for something with the VW logo on it...I don't think I could do that, I would rather just get the Audi A8 L as it looks nicer and more presentable to my eyes (although the Phaeton is definitely a good-looking car). Also, VW is known for its electrical problems...I'm curious if the problems are apparent in the Touareg and Phaeton, which are much more electronically complicated cars than the average Jettas and Golfs that VW already has problems with.
 
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#53
I never saw the problem with the Tuaoreg. It's pretty luxurious so I guess you can justify the price considering the other expensive Ford, Toyota, etc. SUVs out there. My main reason though is that there's no Audi version at pretty much the same price point. The only sister version is the Porsche which costs a LOT more. Nothign wrong with that.

The Phaeton though is simply priced too close to the Audi to make sense to me. I guess you can argue that one's the sporty version and one's the luxo version, but you're at the top end of a price range for even your luxury brand. Just doesn't make too much sense to me.
 
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#54
Strange you say that MrElusive, I tend to think the Phaeton looks just as 'luxurious' from the outside as the S430 or S500. Not as agressive as a BMW model but certainly not cute.
---

If Toyota came out with a luxury model, I would still buy a Lexus. Passat owners who want something more prestigious should go for an Audi. I'm a firm believer in companies serving the market share they were created for. I hope that VW's venture into the big leagues doesn't pay off, just like BMW needs to be slapped upsided the head for the 1 and 2 series.

People like BMW because not everyone can own one, and no one who can afford to drive one is going to drive a VW, because everyone can drive one of those.
 


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