Toyota deceiving the public intentionally?

[Kirby]

Toyota, the "Green" car company?
- Suing to fight tougher emission standards
- CAFE: 1985 = 30 mpg; 2005 = 27.5 mpg

Environmental group questions efficiency

October 24, 2005

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
[font=helvetica,arial]FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER[/font] (Click for full article)

"Is Toyota a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

That's what a stinging national ad campaign against Toyota Motor Corp., launched today by a San Francisco-based environmental group, suggests. The ad is to run in Mother Jones online today and be printed soon in full-page ads in the New York Times and other publications.

Created by the Bluewater Network, a nonprofit organization that fights for clean air and water, the ads against Toyota are thought to be the first ever to attack a Japanese automaker on its environmental record in the United States.

Bluewater says Toyota's hybrids aren't as efficient as their non-hybrid versions and questions why the automaker is fighting tougher standards on fuel economy and emissions. They also note that while Toyota's overall fuel economy is the best in the industry, it is worse than it was 20 years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
........
Foremost, the group questions why Toyota's newest hybrids don't get much better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions.

The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual results in the hybrid.

Other journalists have found similar results, Bluewater notes in its ad, calling the Highlander and Lexus RX 400h "gas guzzlers with no better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions."

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

I think toyota is deceiving the public with their clean air and water commericals... They are innovative however, in that they use the hybrid technology to increase performance rather than fuel economy...

 

[epj3]

I think all companies are bullshitting us. My e30 got 30mpg highway and could easily outrun (better power usage) these "economical cars" that get 32mpg highway.

but I think its our fault as the consumer, not the corporation (with the exception of the big 3 building big fuc*ing stupid useless SUV's). We demand larger and larger cars, and the manufacturers are there to make money and thats it. Thats how they make a sale.

 

[PhatBimmer]

I say we blow up Hybrids and make way for Diesels

 

[bmw046series]

Em it isn't just the "big three", Misto, Datsun (Nissan for those of you in Rio Linda), and TOYOTA build big SUVs and trucks as well.

I don't know if anybody saw the Fifth Gear installment last week but Tom drove the RX Hibird (hybrid for those of you in Rio Linda), his opinion, pointless. The 3 liter X5 has pretty much the same performance, yet the X5 gets better gas mileage, the RX only got 25 MPG! This is why I hate Japanese car brands I have seen their misrepresentation for years and who knows hopefully this will be their demise.

Keep in mind I hate those tree-huggers, but you can’t beat Performance + Efficiency = BMW.

My question for all the fools they drive a Toyota Prius, what kind of gas mileage do you get? The TDI VW Golf gets 60 MPG, does yours?

One finally rant, the batteries will need to be replaced real soon, just like the iPod, what do you think happened to the Honda Insight?

 

[epj3]

Em it isn't just the "big three", Misto, Datsun (Nissan for those of you in Rio Linda), and TOYOTA build big SUVs and trucks as well.

I don't know if anybody saw the Fifth Gear installment last week but Tom drove the RX Hibird (hybrid for those of you in Rio Linda), his opinion, pointless. The 3 liter X5 has pretty much the same performance, yet the X5 gets better gas mileage, the RX only got 25 MPG! This is why I hate Japanese car brands I have seen their misrepresentation for years and who knows hopefully this will be their demise.

Keep in mind I hate those tree-huggers, but you can’t beat Performance + Efficiency = BMW.

My question for all the fools they drive a Toyota Prius, what kind of gas mileage do you get? The TDI VW Golf gets 60 MPG, does yours?

One finally rant, the batteries will need to be replaced real soon, just like the iPod, what do you think happened to the Honda Insight?

BMW's aren't really that efficient...

 

[MrElussive]

046series, as usual, you are giving us incorrect information. The TDW VW Golf does not get 60mpg and the X5 does not even come close to getting 25mpg. Keep in mind that auto reviewers always drive the car hard....if you just drive any car normally, you should easily get the EPA city/highway ratings...remember that the car manufacturer is not even the one who makes the fuel economy estimates! The RX400h sprints to 60mph faster than a X5 3.0i and delivers 10+ mpg more than it. And the batteries in hybrids are rated to last for at least 10 years/100K miles which is the lifespan of every new car.

I think this article is complete bullshit, though. The information in the article is probably terribly skewed and these Bluewater jackasses probably know absolutely nothing about cars. Hybrid vehicles are proven to deliver better gas mileage and lower emissions to help the environment and save on resources, and this Bluewater group is attacking Toyota for it? What a bunch of deluxe idiots.

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

046series, as usual, you are giving us incorrect information. The TDW VW Golf does not get 60mpg and the X5 does not even come close to getting 25mpg. Keep in mind that auto reviewers always drive the car hard....if you just drive any car normally, you should easily get the EPA city/highway ratings...remember that the car manufacturer is not even the one who makes the fuel economy estimates! The RX400h sprints to 60mph faster than a X5 3.0i and delivers 10+ mpg more than it. And the batteries in hybrids are rated to last for at least 10 years/100K miles which is the lifespan of every new car.

I think this article is complete bullshit, though. The information in the article is probably terribly skewed and these Bluewater jackasses probably know absolutely nothing about cars. Hybrid vehicles are proven to deliver better gas mileage and lower emissions to help the environment and save on resources, and this Bluewater group is attacking Toyota for it? What a bunch of deluxe idiots.

Actually the Rx400h gets better gas mileage than the X5 as you state, however it does not get 10+mpg better gas mileage...

The reason why they are attacking Toyota is because they are "misusing" the hybrid technology to make their cars more powerful and sporty as opposed to just fuel efficient. Their argument is that the hybrid technology was developed exclusively to increase fuel economy, and any advances should be in furthering the MPG the car gets. The problem with that is not everyone holds their specific beliefs and if they produced a car which got 80mpg but did 0-60 in 15 seconds, nobody (in terms of mass market) would buy it. So instead they are satisfying the demand for sporty/fast vehicles and at the same time slightly increasing fuel economy along the way.

I have nothing against what they're doing (as it makes their cars more attractive to me) but I don't like their phony ad campaign where they claim that because of Toyota the air/water is cleaner and they are leading the way in fuel efficient cars. The consumer has the notion that hybrid means tremendously efficient fuel economy, when in reality (in that specific model) the gains are marginal. In other words they are marketing the hybrid technology for purposes other than originally intended and soon the other companies will follow suit and the goal of maximum MPG will likely be lost in the process... It is that which conflicts with their interests, so their lawsuit is not by any means trivial.

 

[epj3]

046series, as usual, you are giving us incorrect information. The TDW VW Golf does not get 60mpg and the X5 does not even come close to getting 25mpg. Keep in mind that auto reviewers always drive the car hard....if you just drive any car normally, you should easily get the EPA city/highway ratings...remember that the car manufacturer is not even the one who makes the fuel economy estimates! The RX400h sprints to 60mph faster than a X5 3.0i and delivers 10+ mpg more than it. And the batteries in hybrids are rated to last for at least 10 years/100K miles which is the lifespan of every new car.

I think this article is complete bullshit, though. The information in the article is probably terribly skewed and these Bluewater jackasses probably know absolutely nothing about cars. Hybrid vehicles are proven to deliver better gas mileage and lower emissions to help the environment and save on resources, and this Bluewater group is attacking Toyota for it? What a bunch of deluxe idiots.

In general the hybrids do get better gas milage than nearly any car in the USA. But, if we had the quality of diesel fuel here that europe has, we could import cars LIK ethe VW diesels, peugot's, etc. that would easily get better gas mileage than most hybrids. Keep in mind that a 1.4 or 1.6l diesel might be slightly underpowered for most of us on this forum, but it's much lighter than any hybrid and typically more efficient. Also remember that a hybrid has to charge its batteries, so no matter what - with the exception of regenerative braking - that electric power has to come from somewhere, which is the fuel. An efficient diesel uses the fuel for one thing and one thing only - putting that power directly to the road.

 

[KevRC4130]

This is a bit off topic, but I have always found Toyota advertising a bit shady. Remember the Camry ads that said "This is the most dependable car on the road, 90% of those that were sold since 1985 are still on the road."

The key word is "since". It is portraying it as 90% of pre-1985 cars are still on the road, but you'd hope that any car sold in the last few years is still running.

I also agree that Diesel is a good way to go, however it's expensive, not always readily available, and many Americans associate negative things with diesel engines (noisey, smelly, etc). The Mercedes and VW ones seem to be making a comeback, and I think slowly but surely diesels will make a presence in the states.

 

[epj3]

Huh? "90% of those sold since 1985" would mean that 90% of those sold between 1985 and now... not pre-1985.

If they would have said "90% of those sold till 1985 are still on the road" it would mean what you said.

 

[PhatBimmer]

WTF you talkin bout willis?

 

[MrElussive]

In general the hybrids do get better gas milage than nearly any car in the USA. But, if we had the quality of diesel fuel here that europe has, we could import cars LIK ethe VW diesels, peugot's, etc. that would easily get better gas mileage than most hybrids. Keep in mind that a 1.4 or 1.6l diesel might be slightly underpowered for most of us on this forum, but it's much lighter than any hybrid and typically more efficient. Also remember that a hybrid has to charge its batteries, so no matter what - with the exception of regenerative braking - that electric power has to come from somewhere, which is the fuel. An efficient diesel uses the fuel for one thing and one thing only - putting that power directly to the road.

I agree with you, but these cars are typically very small and the diesel engines have them do 0-60 in around 15 seconds. People in the US hate small cars and can you imagine merging onto our highways with a diesel-powered econobox? Very few people would be willing to deal with it.

 

[epj3]

I agree with you, but these cars are typically very small and the diesel engines have them do 0-60 in around 15 seconds. People in the US hate small cars and can you imagine merging onto our highways with a diesel-powered econobox? Very few people would be willing to deal with it.

The new diesels don't lack performance. BMW and VW both use a system where it will build boost only when necessary, letting the engine run as basically NA on the highway. The old diesels are definitely slow, but with the new technology I think diesel will become king.

 

[KevRC4130]

Huh? "90% of those sold since 1985" would mean that 90% of those sold between 1985 and now... not pre-1985.

If they would have said "90% of those sold till 1985 are still on the road" it would mean what you said.

Yes, but they make it seem as though 90% of Toyotas older then 1985 are still on the road. Unless you actually think about it, that is the message you come away with, making it very misleading.

 

[epj3]

I see what you mean but I'm sure they mean 90% of the toyota's sold since the year 1985.

 

[bmw046series]

Ok let me end this right now HYBRIDS SUCKS! It is an automotive fad, 100,000 miles isn’t that good considering how much they cost I give it 2 years and you will see problems like I said, “Remember” the Honda Insight. Misu Elu. Maybe if you owned a German car you would realize the mileage indicator goes way past 100,000 miles.

A lot of what Merc, VW and BMW are doing is taking two turbo chargers to the engines one small one to build up the revs and a big one for the BOOST.

In regards to the X5 the performance is exactly the same as the RX, and it is 5 MPG difference.

I have seen the reports I have seen the claims the Hybrids don’t get that good of gas mileage when they say 60 you get 40 why buy it they are stupid cheap cars and will be dead in a few years time.

If you want great gas mileage buy a VW Golf, Passat or Jetta diesel you will have better luck and it will be better looking car with even better performance, and people will actually recognize you for being a human-being and not some fool driving around in a space-ship.

 

[epj3]

Did you just say a new german car would go for longer than the majority of new jap cars? haha that's a good joke.

 

[MrElussive]

046series, I hate to say it but you are just so wrong on so many levels dude.

1.) All new cars are based on an 8 year/100,000 mile value, or lifespan, if you will. Obviously cars will last much longer than that but technically, once a car has hit 100,000 miles it has done its job as a machine.

2.) Lexus RX400h is rated at 31mpg city/27mpg, and does 0-60 in 7.3 seconds.
BMW X5 3.0i is rated at 16mpg city/21mpg highway (auto) and does 0-60 in 8.3 seconds (auto). You can argue "actual" gas mileage as much as you want, as both figures I provided are simply EPA estimates, so Toyota and BMW have nothing to do with the figures. The 0-60 times are according to Lexus.com and BMWUSA.com, including the EPA estimates of both vehicles. The whole "hybrids don't actually get their rated gas mileage" is complete and utter bullshit. EPA estimates are extremely accurate and are based on specific driving conditions. It does not account for those who have lead foots (such as myself), or those who sit in traffic all day long.

3.) Regarding the two turbochargers, are you talking about Mercedes' biturbo V12, for example? I am assuming you are talking about the gasoline engines with biturbo setup. In this case, there is one small turbo at the end of each bank of cylinders. Both turbos work together and kick in at the same time, injecting small amounts of boost into the piston chambers. What you explained is not the case, unless I misunderstood you.

4.) I agree, the Honda Insight looks ridiculous. The Prius is much better, but still one awkward-looking car and I would not be caught dead in either one of these vehicles.

 

[epj3]

You guys don't really care about gas mileage anyways, so shutup!!

One hybrid that makes sense is school campuses buying the hybrid ford escape. They can run on batteries 80% of the day and actually can get them charged back at the garage.