Top Gears BMW M5 video
- Thread starter PhatBimmer
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You're right, like I mentioned before, but I just don't see why BMW can't (or won't) offer brakes up to a Porsche (really, they're Brembo's) standard for their M cars... I've read extensively about the CSL, the M5, and the M6 and there is repeated mention of the inability of the brakes to adequately resist fade, especially in evo magazine. That's an English publication that you should get your hands on if you can!
This is what they said about the M6 when they took it to the Ascari circuit: "If the circuit tells us little about the chassis, it does expose the brakes. A perennial M-car bugbear, they feel okay for a lap (although they soon start to grumble), but by the end of the second the middle pedal feels worryingly long, and by halfway through the third, mechanical sympathy prompts you to back off to avoid killing them completely".... and that "this is a great shame for the M6, as it deserves brakes that are absolutely beyond reproach".
On the CSL: "Given that M3 brakes are a standing joke amongst trackday goers, it seems unforgivable that the CSL retains essentially the same fade-prone stoppers as its lesser brother. Surely a car that purports to be the ultimate lightweight road-racer, not to mention one that carries a 60,000 pound pricetag, should sport the very best in brake technology, even if it's on an options list. Carbon ceramic brakes and brick-sized callipers would not only deliver the required stopping power but save another 15-20kg in the process".
This is what I'm on about.
This is what they said about the M6 when they took it to the Ascari circuit: "If the circuit tells us little about the chassis, it does expose the brakes. A perennial M-car bugbear, they feel okay for a lap (although they soon start to grumble), but by the end of the second the middle pedal feels worryingly long, and by halfway through the third, mechanical sympathy prompts you to back off to avoid killing them completely".... and that "this is a great shame for the M6, as it deserves brakes that are absolutely beyond reproach".
On the CSL: "Given that M3 brakes are a standing joke amongst trackday goers, it seems unforgivable that the CSL retains essentially the same fade-prone stoppers as its lesser brother. Surely a car that purports to be the ultimate lightweight road-racer, not to mention one that carries a 60,000 pound pricetag, should sport the very best in brake technology, even if it's on an options list. Carbon ceramic brakes and brick-sized callipers would not only deliver the required stopping power but save another 15-20kg in the process".
This is what I'm on about.
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Chesty, thanks for the sources. I believe this is simply a case of a trade-off. As BMW is selling these cars for the streets, they will use pads and rotors for the streets. That is to say, the BMW's all come with pads that offer solid initial bite and decent heat resistance. If you want to track your M3 (or whatever sports car) and know you are going to ride your brakes hard, that is when you swap out to a set of track pads for the day. Those pads have much better resistance to heat and better friction, but not very strong initial bite. It is crucial for pads and rotors to work effectively for all these street cars right from the beginning, particularly in very cold weather.
And perhaps your sources were being critical? I found a review or two of the M3 ZCP where the reviewer was constantly praising the bigger front rotors and cross-drilled rotors all around, stating how much better they were over the regular M3 brakes on the track.
It is tough to determine the intentions of the M3 CSL. It obviously seems like a HARD-CORE sports car since it has no back seats, no radio, no A/C, light-weight racing seats up front, carbon fiber roof and trunk lid, etc. etc. But then inside the cabin you've got the SMG transmission and the Sport button. As Jeremy Clarkson said, "Shouldn't the car be more sporty all the time?"
Porsche has achieved a no-compromise braking setup through years and years of producing purely sports cars.
And perhaps your sources were being critical? I found a review or two of the M3 ZCP where the reviewer was constantly praising the bigger front rotors and cross-drilled rotors all around, stating how much better they were over the regular M3 brakes on the track.
It is tough to determine the intentions of the M3 CSL. It obviously seems like a HARD-CORE sports car since it has no back seats, no radio, no A/C, light-weight racing seats up front, carbon fiber roof and trunk lid, etc. etc. But then inside the cabin you've got the SMG transmission and the Sport button. As Jeremy Clarkson said, "Shouldn't the car be more sporty all the time?"
Porsche has achieved a no-compromise braking setup through years and years of producing purely sports cars.
Hey no worries about the sources
Yep, I completely agree with what you're saying about having to manufacture brakes that are acceptable for on-road use with good initial bite (our E46 325i is positively sensational in that regard) . I just get so disillusioned by the fact that BMWs brakes are notorious for giving up so quickly on track. I drove the M3 at a BMW driver training course late last year and the brakes on that car grumbled all day - it really surprised me. I just think BMW could make a better compromise with the M cars because they are, after all, a product of the Motorsport division. Maybe I'm expecting too much, I don't know, but the fact that Porsche can find an exceptional compromise suggests to me that there's no reason why BMW can't do the same.
Yep, I completely agree with what you're saying about having to manufacture brakes that are acceptable for on-road use with good initial bite (our E46 325i is positively sensational in that regard) . I just get so disillusioned by the fact that BMWs brakes are notorious for giving up so quickly on track. I drove the M3 at a BMW driver training course late last year and the brakes on that car grumbled all day - it really surprised me. I just think BMW could make a better compromise with the M cars because they are, after all, a product of the Motorsport division. Maybe I'm expecting too much, I don't know, but the fact that Porsche can find an exceptional compromise suggests to me that there's no reason why BMW can't do the same.
Yeah, Clarkson is just too harsh on random aspects of the car.
Chesty, BMW is known for their brakes in terms of predictability and stopping power, but they are known for their brakes in terms of old-school one-piston calipers and poor resistance to fade. Perhaps BMW should out-source the M cars' brakes to Brembo?
Chesty, BMW is known for their brakes in terms of predictability and stopping power, but they are known for their brakes in terms of old-school one-piston calipers and poor resistance to fade. Perhaps BMW should out-source the M cars' brakes to Brembo?
I think he overexagerates the little things, but you have to admit that NOTHING he says is false. And again, Being 1 piston isn't the reason they fade. The reason they fade is becuase the OEM pads are made to be quiet and low dust. Porsche doesnt care about the dust and quietness, thats why they are so much better.
I think bmw should have an optional brake upgrade though. Do the new bmw's have the brake cooling ducts? It would be retarded if they didn't. Even my 1988 325is had brake cooling ducts from the front valence.
I think bmw should have an optional brake upgrade though. Do the new bmw's have the brake cooling ducts? It would be retarded if they didn't. Even my 1988 325is had brake cooling ducts from the front valence.
One piston has nothing to do with fade, it's just oldskool. Many regular cars are running around with multi-piston brake calipers and even the M3 only has single piston calipers. Not bad since the M3 stops from 60 to 0 in 110 or 113 feet, but there is the issue of uneven rotor wear, and when everybody else, including all the companies with sports cars, are using multi-piston calipers, I think it's time for BMW to upgrade their brakes.
And new BMW's dust like crazy. Look at all the X5's, 3-Series, and other BMW's running around...most owners I see cannot keep their wheels clean...it's like they checked the option package marked "Black brake-dust-sprayed front wheels."
Oh yeah, and I have to admit that his opinions are totally wack. Basically, he hates technology, he hates everything that's not a true manual gearbox (meanwhile he goes out and buys an SL55 which comes with auto), and basically he's way too full of himself. He makes it sound like the cars that HE likes are good cars, and the cars he hates are bad cars....totally full of shit. Spends too much time complaining, not enough time complimenting. It's hard to take advice from a guy who could "justify the purchase of an H2." To buy an H2 you must have the word "DUMBASS" stamped on your forehead.
I'll continue to watch his reviews because he always reviews cool cars....but I'll also continue to understand that he barely knows what he's talking about.
And new BMW's dust like crazy. Look at all the X5's, 3-Series, and other BMW's running around...most owners I see cannot keep their wheels clean...it's like they checked the option package marked "Black brake-dust-sprayed front wheels."
Oh yeah, and I have to admit that his opinions are totally wack. Basically, he hates technology, he hates everything that's not a true manual gearbox (meanwhile he goes out and buys an SL55 which comes with auto), and basically he's way too full of himself. He makes it sound like the cars that HE likes are good cars, and the cars he hates are bad cars....totally full of shit. Spends too much time complaining, not enough time complimenting. It's hard to take advice from a guy who could "justify the purchase of an H2." To buy an H2 you must have the word "DUMBASS" stamped on your forehead.
I'll continue to watch his reviews because he always reviews cool cars....but I'll also continue to understand that he barely knows what he's talking about.
brakes: on a normal street legal car, i woudl expect them to fade after a hot lap or two. if you know you'll be tracking your car, and often, you should upgrade the brakes yourselves. if you get the nice super heat resistant racing brakes, how the hell are you gonna stop during a cold day before the car and more importantly those "fade free" brakes heat up to actually come to a stop? i see law suits all over that one.
i dont' know how many hard core enthuists will buy the m5, rather yuppie exacs rolling in one for status. if i may cite the bay area as an example.. i doubt 99% of those guys w/ the m5 track their m, if at all.
JC is over the top, but he was extra annoying tonight. let me make a point by being completely stupid and rehash the good ole, "i hate idrive" jokes. big stupid briton seems to fit right there.
like many i'd love to have the m5, but i see no practicality for me, especially where i live. that said, had i the money and the means, and ability to sit on the 2+ year wait list, i'll pick it up!
i dont' know how many hard core enthuists will buy the m5, rather yuppie exacs rolling in one for status. if i may cite the bay area as an example.. i doubt 99% of those guys w/ the m5 track their m, if at all.
JC is over the top, but he was extra annoying tonight. let me make a point by being completely stupid and rehash the good ole, "i hate idrive" jokes. big stupid briton seems to fit right there.
like many i'd love to have the m5, but i see no practicality for me, especially where i live. that said, had i the money and the means, and ability to sit on the 2+ year wait list, i'll pick it up!
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I know what you mean though.