M3CSL vs. NSX-R who would win?

Messages
401
Likes
0
Location
Chicago
#21
brahtw8 said:
I trust you show the same skepticism to pro-BMW evaluation?
Yes, I would. I certainly doubt any car can beat the CSL. [joke]
Personally my favorite car is the 911. I’ve loved that car since I was about seven years old.

Like I stated, the NSX is an exceptional automobile. From a true, unbiased point of view it is hard to deny the quality of an automobile that is hand built by master craftsman with no less than 10-15 years of experience, not to mention the engineering. I say this being TOTALLY biased toward German cars( just as you seem to be toward the NSX), particularly BMW because I like the intermediary approach they have taken to building vehicles. Cars have a combination of different qualities (i.e. price, speed, handling, quality, practicality, providing profits) IMO BMW seems to have the best blend of these traits, which creates vehicles for many to enjoy.

brahtw8 said:
...The fact remains the NSX had approx. 50-300 less hp. than the cars it was competing with...
One can say that the CSL has the additional weight and distinctiveness to carry five people plus their belongings compared to the competing cars that could only carry two people. I believe actual decisions about which car is the best is ultimately based on what quality each individual is willing to sacrifice for another, whether the decision is conscious or not.

That being said...
MrElussive said:
...I think the M3 CSL kicks ass...
[bmwdance] [bmwkick]
 
Messages
32
Likes
0
Location
NJ
#22
How about this, lets see a video with honda' best performing car (lets say the NSX-R) and BMW's best performing car ( M5 or an old 850il) and see who wins. Obviously honda's best performance car can only match BMW's M3 which is one of many well performing cars that are produced. The NSX is an awesome car for an asian import, but it simply cannot compete with other top end european cars. It does dominate in the asian market, but on an international level is has much competition to beat.
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#23
bimmerman11 said:
How about this, lets see a video with honda' best performing car (lets say the NSX-R) and BMW's best performing car ( M5 or an old 850il) and see who wins. Obviously honda's best performance car can only match BMW's M3 which is one of many well performing cars that are produced. The NSX is an awesome car for an asian import, but it simply cannot compete with other top end european cars. It does dominate in the asian market, but on an international level is has much competition to beat.
First of all, the M3 CSL is BMW's best-performing current production car, and probably the best performing production car BMW has ever made. The heavier E39 M5 cannot lap the ring at the same speed. The 2005 E60 M5 looks promising, but doesn't exist yet in the US, and will be hard pressed to do much better than the significantly lighter M3 CSL.

Second, there was no 850il. The best 850 was the 850csi, and it is too heavy to come close to an M3 CSL on the track, and slower in a straight line in any event.

I would be less concerned about the NSX-R, and more concerned about educating yourself about BMWs. Quite frankly, you do not appear to be in a position to comment on the NSX-Rs position relative to other cars given your demonstrated lack of knowledge about things any self-respecting "bimmerman" would understand.
 
Messages
32
Likes
0
Location
NJ
#24
Well, the only thing on ur mind obviously is the weight spec. See this is where BMW makes up, its called horsepower for the rice burner blinded not to mention torque. So take ur piece of ****ing shit NSUX and get the **** outta here. Theres no need for your asian piece of shit comparisons to bimmers, you put this shit here obviously to show off ur jap wonder, b/c you have one doesn't mean there the best performing car out there. Grow some balls you little punk and then come back and talk shit, till then stick to ur Autozone tuning and ground effect kits. Im tired of these honda enthusiasts talkin shit about a company that actually has a racing heritage.
 
Messages
1,343
Likes
0
Location
New York City
#25
Now children no need to fight, or curse each other out, the NSX is in a different class of car, you cant compare it to the BMW M3 CSL or M5, only car that it can be compared to is the 850i or the 850csl which are both out of production, until bmw releases a car like that again STFU and stop arguing. Now braht, i dont care what you say about the NSX, but its still a Honda, and I truly would never drive anything with that brand on it. Id never pay 40 thousand more dollars for a nsx ( who knows how much more for a nsx-r ) for basically a 15 year old body, practically the same performace, less horsepower, and a less practical car than a m3.
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#26
bimmerman11 said:
Well, the only thing on ur mind obviously is the weight spec. See this is where BMW makes up, its called horsepower for the rice burner blinded not to mention torque. So take ur piece of ****ing shit NSUX and get the **** outta here. Theres no need for your asian piece of shit comparisons to bimmers, you put this shit here obviously to show off ur jap wonder, b/c you have one doesn't mean there the best performing car out there. Grow some balls you little punk and then come back and talk shit, till then stick to ur Autozone tuning and ground effect kits. Im tired of these honda enthusiasts talkin shit about a company that actually has a racing heritage.
Wow, what an ignorant jackass you are. I can't wait for all of your fellow bmwboard members to distance themselves from you and your opinion.

I have been here far longer than you and contributed far more to this board than your immature, anti-Honda baiting.

You obviously know very little about BMWs. Go ahead, google me some specs on the 850il . . . or tell me how the 850Csi and E39 M5 outperform the M3 CSL on the Nurburgring.

You give BMW enthusiasts a bad name. Yet another immature douchebag with a little bit of knowledge and a bad attitude. I have been following BMW since before the best part of you ended up a stain on the mattress.

Honda has racing heritage in spades, BTW.

Go ahead, continue to show us all what a moron you are. You won't find anyone else here to back you up . . .
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#27
Militant-Grunt said:
Now children no need to fight, or curse each other out, the NSX is in a different class of car, you cant compare it to the BMW M3 CSL or M5, only car that it can be compared to is the 850i or the 850csl which are both out of production, until bmw releases a car like that again STFU and stop arguing. Now braht, i dont care what you say about the NSX, but its still a Honda, and I truly would never drive anything with that brand on it. Id never pay 40 thousand more dollars for a nsx ( who knows how much more for a nsx-r ) for basically a 15 year old body, practically the same performace, less horsepower, and a less practical car than a m3.
The NSX is not more comparable to the E31 850 than the E46 M3. The 850 is even more of a GT than the E46 M3, and far heavier and softer. A gentleman's express, not a true sports car. While the NSX E46 M3 comparison is not perfect, it is certainly not worthless.

As for your personal opinion about the worth of Honda, that is your right. I don't share it, but I am not bothered by what you or anyone else thinks in terms of their own personal opinion, so long as it is presented as such.

My problem is with people that dress up hatred and ignorance as fact when they have nothing to contribute to a discussion, as in the case of bimmerman11.
 
Messages
6,984
Likes
0
Location
New Jersey
#28
bimmerman11 said:
Well, the only thing on ur mind obviously is the weight spec. See this is where BMW makes up, its called horsepower for the rice burner blinded not to mention torque. So take ur piece of ****ing shit NSUX and get the **** outta here. Theres no need for your asian piece of shit comparisons to bimmers, you put this shit here obviously to show off ur jap wonder, b/c you have one doesn't mean there the best performing car out there. Grow some balls you little punk and then come back and talk shit, till then stick to ur Autozone tuning and ground effect kits. Im tired of these honda enthusiasts talkin shit about a company that actually has a racing heritage.
Dude, brahtw8 has owned BMW's before and he easily knows BMW's 10x better than anyone on this board. Seriously, you should listen to him because although he has an NSX, his opinions aren't biased since he is a much bigger BMW enthusiast than you would ever think possible.
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#29
MrElussive said:
Dude, brahtw8 has owned BMW's before and he easily knows BMW's 10x better than anyone on this board. Seriously, you should listen to him because although he has an NSX, his opinions aren't biased since he is a much bigger BMW enthusiast than you would ever think possible.
Thanks for the support, Mr. E. I wouldn't say that I know 10x as much as anyone on this board, but I would admit to knowing a fair amount about BMWs. There are lots of other knowledgeable folks on this board, some even more so than I.

I do apologize to the mods for some of the things I said in the heat of passion. It is hard not to respond with force when confronted with such blatant ignorance, but I shall endeavor not to stoop to that level in the future.
 
Messages
4,917
Likes
18
Location
Reading,PA
#30
bimmerman11 said:
Well, the only thing on ur mind obviously is the weight spec. See this is where BMW makes up, its called horsepower for the rice burner blinded not to mention torque. So take ur piece of ****ing shit NSUX and get the **** outta here. Theres no need for your asian piece of shit comparisons to bimmers, you put this shit here obviously to show off ur jap wonder, b/c you have one doesn't mean there the best performing car out there. Grow some balls you little punk and then come back and talk shit, till then stick to ur Autozone tuning and ground effect kits. Im tired of these honda enthusiasts talkin shit about a company that actually has a racing heritage.
There are none as blind as those who will not see.

Regardless as to who may be right or wrong and opinion vs. fact, you are digging yourself a big hole here. Brahtw8 has a long history of posting valuable, accurate information. I respect his opinions even if I disagree with them, because he builds valid arguments based on facts.

That's a passionate rant you gave, but it's SO immature and baseless that I won't waste much time pointing out how wrong you are - one example will suffice.

Im tired of these honda enthusiasts talkin shit about a company that actually has a racing heritage.
HONDA is currently kicking BMW's butt in the Formula I points race. Honda has an extensive racing heritage. Not as old as BMW, but they have been racing since 1936. I'm positive you were clueless about that. Anyone with any common sense at all sees that as a long heritage.

With that post I can guarantee that you have alienated 90% of the members here. It's clear to everyone who is talking $hit, and it isn't Brahtw8.
 
Messages
910
Likes
1
Location
Atlanta, GA
#31
In my fantasy garage, there is a NSX-R for sure. Fine auto, loved my bud's '92 NSX when we used to ride back i nthe college days. Honda or not it's an exceptional car and noteworthy vehicle.

I thought we agreed in the last thread that somehow got on NSX's and M3's, that you can't compare the 2 as equal class cars, because they are not in the same class, and are built for 2 different things. Either way both are exceptional rides, and both would be sure to give you a thrill on the road or at track.

Either one could win depending on what you did to them. stock vs stock, it depends on which 'stock' you're talking about. Equal HP rides, I don't think you'll see either beating the other by any sort of huge space, given equal drivers and equal driving conditions.

\
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#32
Thought I would provide the following from an 911 vs. NSX thread on NSXprime.

These are the kind of discussions we should focus on, where legitimate points of view are expressed in a calm, rational and respectful manner.

NSX owners in that thread, including myself, have things like this to say about the competition, including the E46 M3:

**

You could easily be shopping for a mid eighties 911. Nice cars. I have owned 9 Porsches. It all depends what you want to drive. So long as you have service history on either and factor that into your decission, you should be OK. Two completely different cars IMO.

**

Drive several examples of both. There is no objective 'right' answer to this question. If you love the 911, it is a legitmate choice over an NSX.

**

I would choose the car you like more. They are very different cars. Best of luck.

**

I love both cars and will probably own another 911. But honestly, the only thing I miss about the 911 is the rear drop seats. When down they are great for luggage or a dog.

Both are great to drive: drive them both and buy what you like. If you if you go P-car do your homework. Some models demand more attention than others.

**

This is really subjective. personally, I think the 996 is superior to the 993 in every measurable way and it will out perform and out handle it without fail.

I think what's attached to the 993 is a lot of nostalgia since it is the last air-cooled 911 and the 996 shares the Boxster nose.

Before I bought the 996 I test drove a few 993s and, as a non-Porsche neutral guy, I saw no appeal at all in the 993.

The 996, on the other hand, I find every bit as driveable and civil as my 03 NSX was and, while totally different in character, feels equally capable.

**

Eep! We're really far apart on this one. Personally, I don't find any BMW to be numb at all (blasting around LA in an SMG E46 M3 is one of the best times Ive ever had in a sports car), but the 996 Im driving now is loads and loads more visceral than the 330xi I owned last year. And I think the 80s 911s are such a massive challenge to drive (the difficulty of them made them a legend among "true enthusiasts" (masochists)), that I dont think they can be remotely compared to the NSX which is ALWAYS "criticized" as being "too easy" for a super car. When the critics say that, i think they're specifically thinking of cars like the old 911 that are "not easy". As for the 996, it doesnt feel any less visceral to me than the NSX did, although the character of the car is really very, very different.

**

My comparison to the earlier 911 is the overall feeling of connection to the road. You can feel what the car is doing compared to the road condition. The newer 911s (996) feel much less connected as compared to the NSX and I think that they are much more like my M3, the car simply feels heavy for lack of a better term. It could be that my M3 is more of an anomaly since it has 19 wheels with larger than stock width. They handle well but I guess I simply don't feel as comfortable pushing them. This has been echoed by a friend of mine who is an instructor for both the Porsche and BMW clubs. I have never had my Porsche on the track (Cabriolet) but I have driven other 911s on the track. The 911 wasn't difficult to drive on the track, you simply had to avoid certain bad habits and this is the "legend." Currently, the much touted GT3 is reportedly similar to the 911s of the past (Haven't driven the GT3 so going by reports only). You're right, the NSX is easy to drive in comparison to many "supercars" but my supercar experience is limited to earlier Ferraris (308 and Testarossa), a Diablo VT, Lotus Esprit and various Porsches. The NSX transmission shifts like it reads your mind and the throws are perfect. The steering is precise and feels quick. The gearing in the 6 speed is extremely well mated to the characteristics of the engine. But more importantly, I feel more connected to the road and the car. I'm sure that some of the instructors in the group could comment more eloquently but to me, it feels right. I have that sensation of feeling right (differently but still feels right) with earlier 911s which I never experienced with the 996 series or the E46 M3. The earlier M3 to me feels better than the current iteration. This is just my simple and inexperienced opinion.

**

I guess its highly subjective and extremely subtle. Having driven NSX's for years now (98 and 03), I really dont feel such a big difference going to the 996. Don't get me wrong, the characteristics are totally different, but personally, I dont perceive the NSX being more "connected" somehow.

For what its worth, I've had a fair amount of seat time in the M3 and I didnt find that it felt heavy or disconnected either.

This is definitely one of those highly personal issues, I think, that is just going to be different for everyone (casual and professional drivers included).

**

Thought I'd add my 2 cents here as I own an NSX, but also 2 Porsche 911's (an '87 Turbo Look Cabriolet and a '95 911 Coupe).

First off, for the $30,000 you have to spend, you could buy a nice, moderate mileage early ('91-'93) NSX. On the Porsche side, for the $30,000, I would recommend either an '87 to '89 911 Turbo Look Coupe with the G50 transmission or a mid to higher mileage '95 911. I would stay away from the '90-94 models. The Turbo Look (M491 optioned) cars had the look and suspension and brakes of the Turbo, without the Turbo engine, and they are pretty rare, but worth the effort to locate. The '95 is a better, more modern car vs. the '87 to '89, and most Porsche purists consider the G50 transmissioned '87 to '89 911 and the 993's ('95 to '98) the best Porsches ever made.

The NSX is the easier car to drive fast, looks much more exotic, and is a bit cheaper to maintain. I love my Porsches a whole lot, but will probably never sell the NSX unless I upgrade to a '97 and newer model.

**

think it depends on what you really need & like. In my case, I like NSX's look much better than Porsche. However, I do like 996-Turbo's performence which is damn fast.

NSX & 996 are both great cars. I think there is no need to compare these super cars.

**
 
Messages
1,343
Likes
0
Location
New York City
#34
Kirby said:
HONDA is currently kicking BMW's butt in the Formula I points race. Honda has an extensive racing heritage. Not as old as BMW, but they have been racing since 1936. I'm positive you were clueless about that. Anyone with any common sense at all sees that as a long heritage.

With that post I can guarantee that you have alienated 90% of the members here. It's clear to everyone who is talking $hit, and it isn't Brahtw8.
Yea I was watching F1 from belgium yesterday, the BAR ( British American Racing ) which is powered by honda placed third, by driver J.Button. And Bmw finished in 6th with driver Montoya.. Anyway honda even has these commercials about their racing hertitage aswell. ( More bikes than cars )

Anyone know why Ralph Schumacher wasnt in this race?
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#35
He got hurt in the crash at the US Grand Prix and may not be back this year.

I generally cheer for BMW when I watch racing. I prefer sports car racing, and thus have had a tough past few years since BMW pulled the V12 LMR and the M3 GTR was kicked out of ALMS. Things have been looking up as of late, albeit not in F1.
 
Messages
6,984
Likes
0
Location
New Jersey
#36
yo I just realized something. At the end of this video, when the Gallardo passes the NSX, the driver of the NSX says that his engine is over-heating! And the announcer says that the NSX driver has no choice but to back off because of over-heated engine. Why the hell can't the engine run hard for just a few minutes? I thought all engines are supposed to be run at 6K rpm all day long! Is this crappy engine quality or something?
 

epj3

Senior Member
Messages
7,370
Likes
0
Location
Lancaster, PA
#37
brahtw8 said:
Here are a couple of additional nsxprime threads on the subject of NSX vs. E46 M3.

Note how respectful and knowledgeable the posters are. Many are current and former owners of both. Not an irrational, immature hater in the bunch:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24497&highlight=NSX+E46

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27527&highlight=NSX+E46
You have to keep in mind the age of the posters on each forum - here you have younger people (ie me and younger) becuase we own older bmw's... there arent many people who are under 20 that own an NSX....
 
Messages
1,715
Likes
0
Location
Melbourne, AUS
#38
brahtw8 said:
He got hurt in the crash at the US Grand Prix and may not be back this year.

I generally cheer for BMW when I watch racing. I prefer sports car racing, and thus have had a tough past few years since BMW pulled the V12 LMR and the M3 GTR was kicked out of ALMS. Things have been looking up as of late, albeit not in F1.
Hey brahtw8 i definitely agree that sports-car racing is more entertaining than F1 these days but i have to just say one thing. You say F1 isn't looking too good for BMW at the moment but you have to remember - as i'm sure you do - that it is a combined effeort in this case, i.e., BMW and Williams. I think its generally accepted that the FW26 has a dog of a chassis this year while many in the F1 paddock regard the BMW V10 as one of the best in this business - as it has been for the past 3-4 years. I think this is largely due to the fact that BMW have their engine development completely in-house, unlike Mercedes who simply slap a Merc badge on an Ilmoor engine. I mean, BMW make their own castings for crying out loud!

I dunno who that guy was that abused you in the thread but that sucked. Your posts have been well balanced and insightful. Keep it up. Me? I'd go the CSL anytime but i do really admire the NSX-R for its no-nonsense approach to serious driving, and it has a manual tranny, unlike the CSL which i believe to be an absolute travesty. There is a real art to swapping the cogs yourself and i cant believe BMW have taken this out of the equation in what is their most focussed example of a drivers car. Ditto the new M5. Why!? [:(!]
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#39
MrElussive said:
yo I just realized something. At the end of this video, when the Gallardo passes the NSX, the driver of the NSX says that his engine is over-heating! And the announcer says that the NSX driver has no choice but to back off because of over-heated engine. Why the hell can't the engine run hard for just a few minutes? I thought all engines are supposed to be run at 6K rpm all day long! Is this crappy engine quality or something?
I am surprised you just noticed that.

This particular NSX-R had had overheating problems in a previous Best Motoring Battle. The general consensus is the car is a bit of a factory ringer, with likely a few more ponies than a typical NSX-R, and that the overheating resulted from whatever they did to squeeze the extra power out of it, but that is just speculation.

Outside of this particular car, there is no overheating problem that I am aware of. I know my temperature guage has remained rock solid when I have tracked my car or driven at high RPM for extended periods of time.
 
Messages
1,129
Likes
0
Location
Milwaukee, WI
#40
epj3 said:
You have to keep in mind the age of the posters on each forum - here you have younger people (ie me and younger) becuase we own older bmw's... there arent many people who are under 20 that own an NSX....
This is not news to me . . .

I didn't want to be perceived as insulting the members of this forum by calling them immature, although I think some of them clearly are very immature . . .
 


Top