Hydrogen powered cars may not be comming anytime soon.

gizzy

gizzy

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Claims of hydrogen power may be more polutant than current fossil fuels may prevent hydrogen powered cars from entering the market any time soon. Now, I don't know a whole lot about producing hydrogen or what hydrogen does to the atmosphere, but this just smells like a bunch of people saying "Let's get a bunch of commities together to study the effects. That way we can make a bunch of money too."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,145166,00.html

Hydrogen Fuel May Not Be So 'Clean'
Monday, January 24, 2005

LOS ANGELES — Hydrogen-fueled cars have been hailed as the future of transportation — clean, safe and propelled by a power source whose only by-products are air and water.

"Your main three drivers for developing hydrogen are energy independence, economic growth and environmental sustainability," said Patrick Serfass, technical and program development coordinator of the National Hydrogen Association (search).

The problem, critics say, is that the technology that makes the fuel of the future generates just as much pollution as the gasoline-powered vehicles we drive right now.

"We need to understand where it's going to come from," says Dr. Michael J. Prather, earth-systems science professor at the University of California at Irvine (search).

Extracting useful quantities of hydrogen (search) from water requires a massive amount of energy — energy that typically comes from burning oil or coal.

You can also get hydrogen from methane (search) — but once again, it takes a "dirty" fuel to create a "clean" one.

Another possible problem: Scientists call hydrogen a "leaky gas" that easily escapes from any container you put it in, potentially harming the environment.
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Big Daddy

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Come on leave the politics out, "BUSH" has nothing to do with it, this technogoly has been under review, study and development long beofre and will be long after Bush.
 
Bmw 325i 7803

Bmw 325i 7803

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Fair enough.... the oil companies desired to make hydrogen fuel cells from hydrocarbons when they can indeed make it from water... Politics left out [;)]
 
gizzy

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Bmw 325i 7803 said:
Fair enough.... the oil companies desired to make hydrogen fuel cells from hydrocarbons when they can indeed make it from water... Politics left out [;)]
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The hydrogen COMES from the water (where are you getting hydrocarbons from?) - it is NOT made by using water as the energy source to extract the hydrogen from the water.
 
echothreezero

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This is not new - it has been known since the technology was first explored. It is one of the big problems facing those wanting to implement it. It is only just now that the media has grasped onto it. If you reay energywise and environmental magazines, newsletters, papers etc (as I do from time to time) you would know that "they" have been discussing this problem for years, but are not really that much closer to a solution.

You need electricity to make hydrogen. Electricity comes from coal, fossil fuel, nuclear, natural gas, hydro, or wind power plants. All have their downsides (coal - polution, nuclear - polution and safety, natural gas and fossil fuel - limited supply - uses up earths resources and every gallon you save in your car is then used by the powerstation to make electricity to make your hydrgen car go, hydro - needs big dams that **** up the river's ecosystem, wind - no guarantee of supply, and need large areas for windturbines, and cost alot - look ugly too).

So until this prob is solved, hydrogen has limited benefit over fossil fuels - bio diesel may be the way to go, cleaner burning (esp with new diesel technology), and renewable.
 
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I just got back TODAY from a 2.5 hour paid [:)] BMWNA focus group all about Hydrogen powered cars.

I saw official pics of the 7 series, and it is going into production for the hydrogen powered version, and should be available for purchase in 1 year or less.

It has less than 50% the trunk space, is heavier, gets less per gallon than the gas version and costs more....but the only emission is water vapor.

Hybrid to me still seems like the best way. I would love a 330ci Hybrid!!!
 
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epj3

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How will hydrogen power - either burning hydrogen or through a fuel cell - pollute?? The ONLY byproduct is 100% water. That's it - nothing else CAN come out.
When you have hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark... it causes an ignition of the reaction. What's left over? WATER! Yes, water is 100% the only byproduct of the combustion.

2H2 + O2 -> 2h20 (no subscripts!! stupid internets!)

I know GETTING the pure hydrogen is where the pollution problem will come from... but why can't we use electrolysis - just like the navy submarines do (to create oxygen), and capture that hydrogen? [screwy]
 
Bmw 325i 7803

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gizzy said:
The hydrogen COMES from the water (where are you getting hydrocarbons from?) - it is NOT made by using water as the energy source to extract the hydrogen from the water.
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No it does not, the hydrogen is harvested from the FOSSIL FUELS which generally have CH bonds and thereby the Hydrogen is harvested and the carbon burned off. I never said it is made by using water as the energy source, I said that the hydrogen could be harvested from water, as opposed to being harvested from hydrocarbons which is a scientific synonym for gas/oil etc...

You completely misquoted/misunderstood me I never said hydrogen was made by using water as the energy source to extract the hydrogen, infact water is a biproduct of hydrogen fuel cells.
 
jrt67ss350

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epj3 said:
How will hydrogen power - either burning hydrogen or through a fuel cell - pollute?? The ONLY byproduct is 100% water. That's it - nothing else CAN come out.
When you have hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark... it causes an ignition of the reaction. What's left over? WATER! Yes, water is 100% the only byproduct of the combustion.

2H2 + O2 -> 2h20 (no subscripts!! stupid internets!)

I know GETTING the pure hydrogen is where the pollution problem will come from... but why can't we use electrolysis - just like the navy submarines do (to create oxygen), and capture that hydrogen? [screwy]
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Yes, you are right in saying that the reaction occuring in the engine produces only water vapor. There is no pollution from the car.

The pollution comes from the process that produces the hydrogen that you put in the tank. Yes - electrolysis will work great to produce nice, pure H2 and O2. However, electrolysis requires A LOT of electrical energy, especially on the scale that the hydrogen manufacturers would be using it to supply the world's vehicles with H2. Where does all that electricity for the electrolysis come from? From the powerplants. How do powerplants produce electricity? By burning coal, natural gas, oil, or by splitting uranium atoms. You are just exchanging pollution out of the tailpipe for pollution out of the collective smokestack at power plants. THAT's where the pollution with hydrogen power comes from.

It's the same problem as pure electric cars, just as codex pointed out. Yes, electric cars produce no emissions. However, you somehow have to produce the electricity to power them - that electricity comes from the municipal power supply.

It all comes down to the first law of thermodynamics. There is no way around it in this universe. No energy is free.
 
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epj3

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jrt67ss350 said:
Yes, you are right in saying that the reaction occuring in the engine produces only water vapor. There is no pollution from the car.

The pollution comes from the process that produces the hydrogen that you put in the tank. Yes - electrolysis will work great to produce nice, pure H2 and O2. However, electrolysis requires A LOT of electrical energy, especially on the scale that the hydrogen manufacturers would be using it to supply the world's vehicles with H2. Where does all that electricity for the electrolysis come from? From the powerplants. How do powerplants produce electricity? By burning coal, natural gas, oil, or by splitting uranium atoms. You are just exchanging pollution out of the tailpipe for pollution out of the collective smokestack at power plants. THAT's where the pollution with hydrogen power comes from.

It's the same problem as pure electric cars, just as codex pointed out. Yes, electric cars produce no emissions. However, you somehow have to produce the electricity to power them - that electricity comes from the municipal power supply.

It all comes down to the first law of thermodynamics. There is no way around it in this universe. No energy is free.
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Justin, you and i will come up with a way to capture pure hydrogen in an efficient way. Then we'll make TONS of money. Maybe they'll come up with cold fusion power soon (where more power comes out than what went in...). That energy is kind of free and cold fusion has been produced in labs - just not in a way to make electricity yet.
 
jrt67ss350

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epj3 said:
Justin, you and i will come up with a way to capture pure hydrogen in an efficient way. Then we'll make TONS of money. Maybe they'll come up with cold fusion power soon (where more power comes out than what went in...). That energy is kind of free and cold fusion has been produced in labs - just not in a way to make electricity yet.
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Sounds good! Maybe then I can afford to buy myself a new car! [bmwdance] I'll start thinking.....
 
Kirby

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Bmw 325i 7803 said:
Fair enough.... the oil companies desired to make hydrogen fuel cells from hydrocarbons when they can indeed make it from water... Politics left out [;)]
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This is actually true. Justin explained the electrolysis angle. There are also other angles being investigated. There is a process that takes natural gas and breaks it into H and O. Unfortunately, a by product of this breakdown is CO2. The Carbon has to go somewhere, so it combines with oxygen and forms carbon dioxide... So this process contributes to the supposed green house effect.

Like Justin said, the first law of Thermodynamics sets the rules for the game.
 
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