Civic Hybrid?

[Bmw 325i 7803]

I had rad the same too: if you are in town - i.e. slowing down, accelerating,... then hybrid is better. Otherwise, on highway, the hybrid tends to do worse than a regular equal 4 cylinder.

Off course, do not listen to me for advise on gas mileage. I drive every week to Houston, TX with my chevy truck - i.e 15-18 mpg to save my "baby 545" from taking too many miles - This way, I have the whole week end to enjoy it, .. and still at 26 mpg on highway!
Like all you guys said - it is maybe not a sound investment, but it is still "the Ultimate Driving Machine"

AMEN

I read on the green hybrid forum that motor trend apologized for their error, I can post the link if google doesn't make it easy to find. I doubt the hybrid does worse than a regular 4 cylinder. I mean, Chevy Aveo claims 37mpg and Honda civic 07 claims 40 mpg, although those are set to be revised for 2008 EPA ratings. Let's see I doubt the EPA rating for 40mpg applies when driving 75, and if it did, I can get 38.6 mpg on a new engine civic hybrid holding 75mph for 200+ miles on cruise control and this includes hilly terrain. (on a flat smooth highway I can get around 42 mpg) How can the hybrid do worse than a regular 4 cylinder? Besides if you drive at 55mph, you will honestly get 50mpg to even 55mpg+ if its flat terrain. I doubt the regular 4 cylinders can do that. Maybe the older 4 cylinder cars which weighed 2300-2500lbs can match the hybrid at 75 or come close, but if you compare safety and the fact that the civic hybrid 07 weights 500lbs more, I think that would imply the hybrid gets better gas mileage. Motor trend loves to floor their cars, and they still averaged 35-40mpg that sure says something. I'm sure some hybrids have something wrong with them, and get poor gas mileage, but I have to say, I'm delighted with this one.

As for the 545i, hey 26mpg is nice for 75 I'm guessing. There is a 535i with better interior amenities (why does BMW do this, it would irk me if I dropped 55k on a car only to have it lacking the latest features 2-3yrs later) it also gets 30mpg on the highway (forget the new 2008 EPA sticker it's under harsher driving, if the 335i could average 29mpg, and BMW is known to get better than posted gas mileage on the highway, I bet the 5 series which is roughly 200lbs heavier I believe, should get 28-30mpg as well.

I do wonder why BMW made a 535i which offers the same or better performance than the 545i, and almost .1 or .2 slower to 60 performance as compared with the 550i. Why bother with the heavy V8 if you can have the turbo I6 with 300hp and torque. If it pulls better at 100mph, well fine, but how is that useful for daily driving. I also agree with keeping the miles off the bimmer, the 5-series is one sweet car, it has the most comfortable back seat on any BMW.

 

[selavia]

In the end, the result is still the same. Stakeholders in oil and refinery companies are grossing larger profits from coutnries like ours and now China and the consumers are still nickel and diming for $.03 off a gallon of gas while automanufacturers and media channels attempt to capitalize on the consumers price sensitivity. All this talk about gas mileage is starting to get me sick.

 

[gpiron]

In the end, the result is still the same. Stakeholders in oil and refinery companies are grossing larger profits from coutnries like ours and now China and the consumers are still nickel and diming for $.03 off a gallon of gas while automanufacturers and media channels attempt to capitalize on the consumers price sensitivity. All this talk about gas mileage is starting to get me sick.

Sorry, it is going to be a long one... I am in the oil business...

Offer and demand, my friend. It is the key, and yes, the media is milking the situation.

10 years ago, you could find tankers idling in the gulf with less suitable oil, sour or heavier, which was not the prefered product. Now, everything that is coming is offloaded somewhere.

China has and will continue to gobble all available drop of oil ( they are increasing their car pool by at least 250,000 units every year!!!) AND the US has not built new refineries in ... more than 30 years or so - they are aging... remember Texas City? Refineries have a difficult dillema- they are pushed by everyone to keep producing at the same level in order to keep gas affordable, but also need to fix and repair their aging facilities, which means to rotate shut downs - it happens every years and you can see the spike in $/gal when they do.
Everybody is bitching about the oil companies, but few really do anything about it on their own.
We have a huge country and public transportation is not easy to set in place - our communities are spread so wide that buses routes are difficult to put together, plus, we have our old mentality of wanting to keep our independance - case and point, everyone will buy a slightly smaller car to justify not taking train or buses, or even car pooling ...???, but then will buy their children 1 or 2 or even 3 other cars...!!!!!!
Look at each one of us - we have more cars than drivers, it is a US fact!
If you go to Europe, see the difference.
No V8, no gas engines bigger than a 2.5 litres and the bigger will always be diesel, because the taxes on diesel are a lot less than on Gasolin. Families with 0 or 1 car only commun.
By the way, for everyone who says our gasolin is expensive- In Europe, I just came from Scotland, Paris and Amsterdam, it is about 1.1 to 1.5 euro per litre ( most expensive in GB), or 5.3 USD per gal for the cheap stuff.
Europe taxes on gasolin is at least 60 % of the their price, so that taxes apart, our gas is not cheaper or more expensive than theirs.


I do not remember anyone complaining about global warming when oil was at 11$/bbl and Gas was at 1$/gal ... and an average car was getting 15 mpg...!!!

Just a few thoughs, and I know, the oil companies are making money, but remaining in proportion for their sales.

 

[selavia]

My largest (and probably only) complaint about the oil industry is the way it prices in relation to the price of a barrel of oil. And I'm not talking just about final consumption items like gasoline.

The price per barrel, like most markets, flucuates greatly. It goes up as supply goes down and demand stays constant or increases and vice versa. My resentment is the fact that this is a one way affair. What I mean is that in this country and CHina gas prices flucuate radically. Retail-level distributors should be able to somewhat forecast a price of the barrel of oil without causing prices to flucuate almost a dollar in either direction during one season. I mean, for the type income level who drives a BMW or any newer car, the flucuation is something that savy consumers plan for or that they can afford. Maybe a pinched penny here and there, but when you start getting to consumers who have a rudimentary understanding of economics and are on a really fixed income, the flucuation in gas prices is murder on their budget. Coupling this with the fact that when the price per barrel rises, prices go up the next minute, but when price falls, it takes about a week to notice the price difference.

Now I know that it is unfair to single out an industry. In truth, all parties, including voters, should have some culpability. Retailers, distributors, politicians, etc. But, if we are going to look at the part who can most directly make an impact and who benefits directly, it's going be the oil companies and refineries. I also understand that their profits are proportioned to their sales, but if you pull the financial reports for XOM, you're telling me your not impressed with those numbers? Yeah, good management, diversification, etc... but come on; what is really boosting profits.

BTW, feel free to blast me for my opinions. This is what I think and I can be wrong.

And BMW325i_7803, sorry for jacking /turning this thread.

 

[gpiron]

My largest (and probably only) complaint about the oil industry is the way it prices in relation to the price of a barrel of oil. And I'm not talking just about final consumption items like gasoline.

The price per barrel, like most markets, flucuates greatly. It goes up as supply goes down and demand stays constant or increases and vice versa. My resentment is the fact that this is a one way affair. What I mean is that in this country and CHina gas prices flucuate radically. Retail-level distributors should be able to somewhat forecast a price of the barrel of oil without causing prices to flucuate almost a dollar in either direction during one season. I mean, for the type income level who drives a BMW or any newer car, the flucuation is something that savy consumers plan for or that they can afford. Maybe a pinched penny here and there, but when you start getting to consumers who have a rudimentary understanding of economics and are on a really fixed income, the flucuation in gas prices is murder on their budget. Coupling this with the fact that when the price per barrel rises, prices go up the next minute, but when price falls, it takes about a week to notice the price difference.

Now I know that it is unfair to single out an industry. In truth, all parties, including voters, should have some culpability. Retailers, distributors, politicians, etc. But, if we are going to look at the part who can most directly make an impact and who benefits directly, it's going be the oil companies and refineries. I also understand that their profits are proportioned to their sales, but if you pull the financial reports for XOM, you're telling me your not impressed with those numbers? Yeah, good management, diversification, etc... but come on; what is really boosting profits.

BTW, feel free to blast me for my opinions. This is what I think and I can be wrong.

And BMW325i_7803, sorry for jacking /turning this thread.

Thanks for your opinions. And yes, that is what this board is all about : being able to express them

It is good to have talks among adults!

A few comments, though.

When Oil is produced, i-e, by producers, it is sold to pipeline operators/transporters, then to refineries, the transported again to gas stations. Please, notice that the refining companies are getting fewer and the one remaining are very powerfull- see Valero, for example.

The culprit is free enterprise or what is what is called speculators - but again, we are in a capitalistic society - those firms buy into what is called future gasolin: they can buy contracts on bulk of future gasolin at a certain price, sit on it and pull the trigger, for example close to vacation or holidays when the demand is sky high. Sometimes they loose, but most of the time, the price is staying up, so they are the ones making a killing and the ones responsible for the erratic fluctuation between the price of oil and the price of gas.

Oil has been fluctuating from 55 to 70/bbls. Earlier this summer, oil was at 60- 65 and gasolin was passed 3$/gal. Now oil is at 70 and you can find gas at 2.8$/gals (in Houston).
See: http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/

Finally, remember that oil companies are taking more and more risks into deep water ventures, which are extremely expensive and need a tremendous amount of capital to be able to sustain delays, dry holes,...

But again, we are going back to the old politics moto which has been raised so many time to scare Amrecia about our free enterprise:... the rich will become richer and the poor will become poorer.
Yes, it definitely will hurt the poeple on a budget, but again, our economy has not come to a halt after doubling the price of oil, so not everything is going wrong.

Remember, we are all in it together- oil generates revenues for everyone, directly and through giving America buying power, cars, manufacturing, ...
I hope I am rigth but I still think American Economy is not so bad after all...

Drive safely![driving2]

 

[deutsch100]

I totally agree with you Sean. I think you made your point, clearly, fairly and well written! Wildly fluctuating gasoline prices probably do not truly affect the average BMW or Mercedes driver, but there are tens of millions of Americans that really take it hard. What irks me is that in Europe, (and I'm only speaking of Germany & Sweden) is that gasoline might be $6.00+ a gallon, but the high taxes actually go back to public works, healthcare and education, not in some fat bastard's pocket as in the USA.

And how do we know that BMW 325i 7803 is not just "car trolling". Have we seen a VIN # or sales contract???

 

[gpiron]

I totally agree with you Sean. I think you made your point, clearly, fairly and well written! Wildly fluctuating gasoline prices probably do not truly affect the average BMW or Mercedes driver, but there are tens of millions of Americans that really take it hard. What irks me is that in Europe, (and I'm only speaking of Germany & Sweden) is that gasoline might be $6.00+ a gallon, but the high taxes actually go back to public works, healthcare and education, not in some fat bastard's pocket as in the USA.

And how do we know that BMW 325i 7803 is not just "car trolling". Have we seen a VIN # or sales contract???

See my last post and you migth see a little better how things work here before you talks about someone's pockets: yes, I work in the industry, so they are my pockets too...

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

Deutsch: You sure got me, and as usual you hollywood types have an IQ level of zero. I couldn't care less if you thought I rode my metrocard .


back on topic: As for BMW drivers being able to afford any wild fluctuation in gas prices, I think we had better think again. The average BMW driver leases their car or finances it to a payment that fits into their budget. They also live in the suburbs and commute in big city traffic. If the price of premium doubled or tripled, depending on how much driving one does, they will definitely feel the squeeze, especially with their debt management, credit cards, huge home mortgage, and BMW FS payments. Some people cannot afford a BMW so they either finance or lease it as a method of living beyond their means. In some cases one might lease a car for a few years simply because they don't want to maintain it, take the risk if it gets hit, or they want a new car every few years. But to finance means I can't afford the car, financing is getting out of hand in my opinion. When I bought the hybrid there was a few thousand in additional payment which they offered to finance on 9%, you've gotta be kidding. They also asked THREE times if the car was owned clear and I told them each time yes no leins, I had to take out the title. The above is exactly what is wrong with the economy, everyone finances, nobody buys with cash, if they did, they wouldn't look at you with a dropped jaw [80?] when you say "own it free and clear".

I'd also like to add that the rest of us who are not so lucky as to be able to withstand higher gas prices, such as those in poor rural areas, economic backwashes, and inner cities, or even mainly, affordable suburbs with subprime mortgages. Those persons will be devastated by high gas prices. Everyone feels the higher gas prices, wake up and understand the complex yet solid links between consumer spending, consumer debt, fuel prices, and our ever so fragile American economy.

Also, not everyone buys a hybrid to save money, some people are just disgusted with burning so much fuel, making the oil cartels so rich and their affiliates, that the hybrid becomes more of a statement and a hobby, than a tool. Besides, I wouldn't wanna be driving an expensive looking BMW when gas is $5 and the poor are feeling vengeful.

selavia: I wouldn't call this a thread hijack, its more of a digression from the vehicular aspect of the topic, to the political and economic portion. So no problem.

 

[tool fan]

No V8, no gas engines bigger than a 2.5 litres and the bigger will always be diesel, because the taxes on diesel are a lot less than on Gasolin.

Check your facts.......... Europe DOES in fact have 6.0 liter engines and V12's. And there are far more Gas engines than diesel because diesel cars are more expensive to buy.

I live here.

 

[gpiron]

Wake up, my friend... you always will have some priviledged who can afford it. Apparently you are well off yourself if you have one - are you a collector?
Of course, you will have V8, V10 and V12's in high end cars - MB, BMW, Audi, Ferrari,... but I am sorry- the average car in Europe is a 2.0 litre TD or an equal or smaller gasolin one. I know I do not live there anymore, but was there two weeks ago. Do not tell me the typical European family has a 8 or even 6 cylinder ...And by the way, the ones you will find are company cars (every 5 serie BMW I saw was a diesel, typically 530 TD) and coming with fuel cards too!, unless prhaps they are a few well cushionned collectors...- I rest my case!

For the record, Belgium, little tiny country just passed the mark for 50 % of the vehicles being company cars - Reason:

"Every car above a certain power ( 160-180 BHP) gets an incredible penalty tax which the common folks can not afford"

European have had to deal with high price gasolin a long time ago - I remember 0.50$/litre earlier. The oil crisis in the 70's woke people up - do you remember Sunday without driving where all the kids tok the autobahn over with bycicles?
You probably are too young for that.

Unless they have lived in Europe, you will find it difficult to have Americans understand that their price for gas, even at 3$/gal is still cheap gas...

 

[gpiron]

Wake up, my friend... you always will have some priviledged who can afford it. Apparently you are well off yourself if you have one - are you a collector?
Of course, you will have V8, V10 and V12's in high end cars - MB, BMW, Audi, Ferrari,... but I am sorry- the average car in Europe is a 2.0 litre TD or an equal or smaller gasolin one. I know I do not live there anymore, but was there two weeks ago. Do not tell me the typical European family has a 8 or even 6 cylinder ...And by the way, the ones you will find are company cars (every 5 serie BMW I saw was a diesel, typically 530 TD) and coming with fuel cards too!, unless prhaps they are a few well cushionned collectors...- I rest my case!

For the record, Belgium, little tiny country just passed the mark for 50 % of the vehicles being company cars - Reason:

"Every car above a certain power ( 160-180 BHP) gets an incredible penalty tax which the common folks can not afford"

European have had to deal with high price gasolin a long time ago - I remember 0.50$/litre earlier. The oil crisis in the 70's woke people up - do you remember Sunday without driving where all the kids tok the autobahn over with bycicles?
You probably are too young for that.

Unless they have lived in Europe, you will find it difficult to have Americans understand that their price for gas, even at 3$/gal is still cheap gas...

 

[selavia]

Bmw 325i 7803 , this is an instance where I side, almost whole-heartedly, with your statements. I agree with what you said on the whole (except that first part; I didn't see a need to bring IQ levels into it. ) However, one tiny statement that I must make, notice, I said BMW owners are 'less' likely to be affected. Even moreso, they are going to be have other alternatives that people in differing socio-economic situations will not. They can get rid of their BMW and buy a cheaper, older, more efficient vehicle. They have the consumer power to do that. If your credit is good enough to get a BMW lease or afford that type of car payment, I think (again, I'm not an economist by trade, just by hobby) that with the flucuating gas prices do not effect your budget as much because (1) you have an option to get out of the BMW and get into something more conducive to his/her situaiton (2) s/he could probably shave the fat somewhere else off their budget (3) the type of job you have raises pay to match inflation. Whereas someone who is quite literally hand-to-mouth is left without any options.

And you brought up sub-prime lending... [shudders] That really pisses me off. So many people are forced into foreclosure because of that nonsense. Foreclosure is up some 150%. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[selavia]

And back to gas prices.... I do not know if comparing U.S. prices for gas to Europe (or any other coutnry besides China) is fair. I mean, its supply and demand meets regulation. Regulation affects the supply and demand of products because regulation 'usually' affects price. And if these other coutnries have more burdensome regulations, of course the item is going to cost more, but it's hard to then jump to saying gas is 'cheap' in this country.

Gpiron, your probably in the best position to answer this question, but anyone care to give it a guess? For the amount of oil that this country demands and the world supply, are gas prices 'where they should be' in a true supply / demand analysis. Let's leave out regulatory taxes of the U.S. for a second (or if you know how those taxes fit into the equation, feel free). I would venture a guess that our gas prices should be less, much less than half of the price in Europe because of more lax legislation / regulation and our mamouth like demand. Again, I don't know for sure, I'm merely giving an opinion.

 

[gpiron]

The main problems, are 1/ that our refining industry is stretched to the max, having to accept all kinds of crude, which requires different set ups to refine, thus increasing costs and 2/ there is no idle oil available anymore that can buffer the ups and downs of our demands.
All regulations and taxes aside, this remains free entreprise where speculation rules (more than in Europe: i.e. over there, the margin are a lot smaller due to bigger taxes) and will take advantage of every opportunity to make a profit.

I hear you all when you say that the price of gas has increased so much everyone on a budget is suffering.

For those reading this board:

We all have choises: I could drive my wife car and get 30 mpg, even buying premium and be ahead, but I chose to drive my truck at 17 mpg or I could have decided not to buy my BMW, which stays under cover during the week. Most of the poeple on this board have a minimum of 2 vehicle, one they drive and their BMW, for pleasure.
I see a lot of people so said on a budget buying carts of cigarettes and cases of beer at high $$$ and not bitching about it and I have so sympathy for them or for any of us woinwoin-ing about it.


The only people I feel for is the real poor working class, or single parent who has to take on 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet, and needing to drive to do it- I know they are out there and they are the ones I feel for; and those most definitely do not read this board, nor have the extra cash to buy of finance a BMW, even a second hand from the 90's with 50K miles. But unfortunately, the poeple who are hurting are too busy and will never have the slightest chance to be heard.
We all have enough resources, some more than others, or we would not be reading those posts


Overall though...
1/ I have not seen many drivers changing their behaviour by just slowing down, car pooling, buy smaller vehicles,... Remember, as you pointed out, the consumer ultimately is the buying power and make choices for himself.

2/ Many complain about the price of Gas, but do not say anything about the cost of a gallon of milk, or even worse, a gallon of water that requires for the most, just provide container after basic filtration.

Have a good day, everyone and drive safely.

GP

 

[Kirby]

I have not seen many drivers changing their behaviour by just slowing down, car pooling, buy smaller vehicles,... Remember, as you pointed out, the consumer ultimately is the buying power and make choices for himself.

I agree.

One place I HAVE seen people adjust is power boating. Obviously, if you can afford a power boat you have disposable income, no flames/arguments needed there!

Three or four years ago, it was common to see lots of people water skiing, tubing, and just running up and down the lake where I have my boat. I remember seeing Cigarette/Scarab style twin 450 hp boats screaming at 60 - 70 mph, getting 1 - 2 mpg. Filling up at the fuel dock for the day cost them $150.

This summer and last, the VAST majority of boaters head out to a "party cove" and anchor for the day, and in general I see about 30% less boats on the water. Gas prices have definitely impacted power boating.

 

[gpiron]

Kirby, to avoid chocking the first post of this tred, I started another one on Gas prices, so the rest, if not interested, do not have to suffer by our "rethoric"!

 

[PhatBimmer]

WOw I'm gone for a couple of months and I come back to reading about people trading in there BMW's for Hondas lol.

So depressing

 

[MrElussive]

I refuse to believe everyone else's 40+mpg fuel mileage claims. I also refuse to believe any 30+ mpg claims. I4, I6, lighter car, heavier car, whatever.

I have no idea what all of your driving conditions are but here in Northern NJ traffic + my heavy foot + running A/C during the humid summer = G35C getting 17mpg.

Again, I find it hard to believe that any gasoline-only-powered vehicle comes anywhere close to a hybrid vehicle in fuel mileage unless we are talking about a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla/Yars, Honda Fit, etc. etc.

 

[Big Daddy]

I hope your not calling me a lair.

 

[Militant-Grunt]

I refuse to believe everyone else's 40+mpg fuel mileage claims. I also refuse to believe any 30+ mpg claims. I4, I6, lighter car, heavier car, whatever.

I have no idea what all of your driving conditions are but here in Northern NJ traffic + my heavy foot + running A/C during the humid summer = G35C getting 17mpg.

Again, I find it hard to believe that any gasoline-only-powered vehicle comes anywhere close to a hybrid vehicle in fuel mileage unless we are talking about a Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla/Yars, Honda Fit, etc. etc.

I get about 20-22mpg average in my A4 driving like a bat out of hell, When I really try I can get as high as 25 average, and about 30 highway, but to do that again I have to clean out my MAF and tune up the car with fresh fluids and filters haha.