What an Embarrassment & Disappointment!

CosmosBlack

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#1
I wrote in a post some time back about how BMW (and other luxury car manufacturers) is coming up with all these hi-tech electronics and they are unreliable and untested, rushed out to us consumers, just to stay ahead in the market. Hence, we are the testing grounds, and we pay to test their products, which fail prematurely most of the time! This is not what I expect from BMW, who has come a long way and has a reputation of building ultimate driving machines. Prices are going up and quality is dropping off!

Well...I guess nobody agreed with me then, coz' I didn't get any feedback or comment. And I wondered if my car was the only one with electronics failing one after another??? At least now I know I am not alone, this was in USA Today:

And as if that is not enough, the 745i did worse than the Lexus LS4430, MB S430 and Jaguar in the Consumer Reports Luxury car comparison. I used to be so proud of the 7series being the leader year after year in top end Luxury cars.
 

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#4
the new 7 is pathetic compared to its competion
sales are down like 20+% i hoped that bangle
would be fired, but he's there to stay as u can
see by the new 6 and 5 (i like 6 more than 5)

the electronics are poorly made yes, and have
tons of glitches, but we are not the testing grounds
i have an article in a mag from like 98 or somthing
that has an interview with the guys making the iDrive
 
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#5
to support this type of acusation about failing electronics systems, i would like to know how mercedes does in this too.
I was building my own cars tonight, some of those have these sonar systems on the front that can monitor your distance from the car ahead and keep you at that set distance not to mention apply 20% braking power as well, to keep you there. thats amazing!

or the metal flake filled shocks that can be charged to adjust your ride in the event of hard cornering and the like.

or all these systems that run even after the car is off, draining the battery if theres a glitch, leaving you dead.
id hate to have any of these systems go bad
 
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#6
Mercedes also has problems with its electronics. Their overall quality numbers have fallen significantly, and they recently admitted they brought too many electronic gadgets to the market too quickly.

Here is the article from autoweek:

Bugs bite Mercedes-Benz quality; glitches lead to go-slower approach


By DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News


FRANKURT -- Top executives at Mercedes-Benz admit that a wave of increasingly complex electronic products proved so difficult to debug that the German automaker is modifying its first-at-all-costs approach to technology.

Quality glitches caused by Mercedes' Comand system proved maddeningly difficult to fix two years ago, forcing the automaker to boost product testing by 50 percent.

Problems with Comand, which integrates the onboard navigator, entertainment system and phone, forced Mercedes to buy back 2,000 E-class sedans from U.S. customers. The quality glitches also created tensions with Robert Bosch GmbH, a key Mercedes supplier.

This is the first time Mercedes-Benz has acknowledged the widespread quality problems. During an interview with Automotive News at the Frankfurt auto show, a top company executive said Mercedes is working hard to improve its ranking on consumer quality surveys.

"We have a problem because we are the technology leader," said Juergen Hubbert, the DaimlerChrysler board member responsible for Mercedes cars. "We were not talking about (the improvement) because you have to see it. On the next survey you will see we are on our way."

Hubbert was referring to J.D. Power's most recent Initial Quality Survey, which measures a vehicle's quality three months after it is purchased. The survey, which was released in spring, ranked Mercedes 15th among brands, barely above the industry average.

Problems began to crop up two years ago, when Mercedes-Benz had trouble integrating Comand's features. Bosch supplied the system's navigator.

When Mercedes-Benz connected Comand's electronic systems, the screen would go blank and systems would malfunction. The system created other glitches. For example, the system inadvertently would activate the electric seats and drain the battery.

A Bosch source says Mercedes asked the supplier to integrate Comand's features after Mercedes had trouble doing so. But the effort to debug Comand strained Bosch's engineering resources.

According to a Mercedes executive, Bosch placated its angry customer by firing a top executive in its Blaupunkt unit, which produces navigators, radios and other electronics. The Mercedes source did not name the executive, and the Bosch spokesman declined to comment.

But it is known that senior Bosch executive Stephan Rojahn left the company without explanation late in 2001.

Rojahn, a highly regarded manager who was on Bosch's fast track, was responsible for Blaupunkt. Rojahn later joined Durr AG, a manufacturer of paint equipment.

Comand's quality glitches proved difficult to track down. The electronics would fail sporadically, making it difficult to identify and fix problems.

"When you looked into it, it never happened again - until the next time," Hubbert said.

As problems persisted, consumers began to downgrade their opinions of Mercedes quality. According to J.D. Power data, Mercedes owners reported 132 problems per 100 vehicles, just above the industry average of 133 problems.

"Seven out of our top 10 problems are with electronics, communications, telematics, radio, telephone - activities where we had put a lot of electronic systems in the car," said Hubbert.

The good news, according to the company, is that the electronics problems have been fixed.

"What we have and what we deliver to the market is of significantly higher quality than it ever was," said Hans-Joachim Schoepf, executive vice president for Mercedes-Benz's car development and engineering.

To improve quality, Mercedes-Benz increased its product testing by 50 percent. "We do more testing than we ever did, especially with debugging," Schoepf said. "The real problem is that we underestimated the debugging phase in new electronics systems, especially multimedia."

The company also redesigned its Comand system so that it can diagnose a problem without the customer's intervention.

"If something happens in the system, it repairs itself," Schoepf says. "You won't see it as a customer."

Mercedes also has dispatched employees to its suppliers to become technology experts. The company has assigned staffers to Motorola, Nokia and Siemens, among others.

"If you want to work together with your supplier you have to have expertise," said Schoepf. "Otherwise, they can tell you anything."

Schoepf also says Mercedes made sure that dealers were kept informed so that they could fix vehicles as they came in for service.

Mercedes-Benz eventually changed suppliers, awarding the navigator contract to Harman/Becker Automotive Systems.

Bosch's other contracts with Mercedes have not been affected.

"It was clear the multimedia side has nothing to do with the fuel injection, sensor or the engine control unit," Schoepf said.

The experience has not deterred Mercedes-Benz from its goal of being the auto industry's technology leader in safety and fuel economy.

For example, Mercedes considers its Pre-Safe crash avoidance system, which activates the brakes when it senses an impending crash, to be a key safety technology.

But company executives are debating the need to adopt less essential technologies quickly. For example, Mercedes-Benz has not moved quickly to introduce Internet access or text message service.

Mercedes executives are troubled by the brand's drop in quality ratings. But Joachim Schmidt, head of worldwide sales and marketing, argues that customer loyalty remains high.

"We have problems but ... we are very successful in terms of sales and we are very successful in terms of brand awareness," Schmidt said. "We have the highest loyalty rate in the automotive industry."

Schmidt says Mercedes dealers have been able to fix nearly all problems.

"We have customers that have high expectations," he says. "There is no sign that the situation is grave. Our image is great."
 

mikev

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#7
Its all about cutting edge technology! BMW one of the first to introduce Sat-Nav. Honda for example have only just started to put it in. Testing can only be done so much. In my job we test our software as best we can but the users don't know how to use it properally and also don't read the manual at all. if you don't do things the correct way it is possible for a problem you set up when you first got the car to resurface 2 or 3 years down the line.

It has been a widely known problem that movement and electronics don't mix very well. its got better but as cars become more technologicaly advanced the more problems we will have. like i said people complain bitterly about the I-Drive but this wasn't developed that long ago. to put it into perspective Microsoft windows. how many complain bitterly about that (Still) but it is the most used operating system in the world and most companies can't live without it. give it 10 years and what the 7 series has now the Honda Accord will have.

oh and if you think that all the electronics are a waste of time and money i have a simple word of advice don't tick the option box for them!
 

PuShAkOv

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#8
Yes. As technology growth increases car manufacturer's would face higher and higher costs of living up to the growing trend. Eventually, I think, car makers are going to enter an equilibrium where they would be able to balance technology with cost of maintainance ... unfortunatly in the world of competition everyone wants to be the best..
 
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#9
mikev said:
Its all about cutting edge technology! BMW one of the first to introduce Sat-Nav. Honda for example have only just started to put it in.
You may be confusing japanese products outside of their home market with those in Japan.

When it comes to technology, no culture has more of a fetish for it than the Japanese. We in the US lag several years behind in terms of personal electronics, etc. You should see the cell phones and whatnot they use over there.

Japanese cars have had Nav systems since the late 1980s, in the home market.

Honda and others have had them in their US models since the late 1990s.

BMW's Nav system is considered to be inferior to that from Honda or Lexus.
 

mikev

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#10
brahtw8 said:
You may be confusing japanese products outside of their home market with those in Japan.

When it comes to technology, no culture has more of a fetish for it than the Japanese. We in the US lag several years behind in terms of personal electronics, etc. You should see the cell phones and whatnot they use over there.

Japanese cars have had Nav systems since the late 1980s, in the home market.

Honda and others have had them in their US models since the late 1990s.

BMW's Nav system is considered to be inferior to that from Honda or Lexus.
fair point, but you know what i was getting at.
 
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#12
All technology fails! Even something so simple as a keyless entry that has been on cars for 30 years can and eventualy will fail. Problems will arise, my belief is that the reason all this new technology is failing so quickley is that too many corners are being cut and cheeper materials are being used.

But Mercedes and BMW can just stop cutting corners because the price would go up to high, meaning the electronics that are failing must be eliminated. I am not saying to get rid of all the technology but if you cant do it properly then dont do it at all.

Also, BMWs Idrive is complete and total utter crap. I am very fond of electronics but 10 min with that and it was like what were they thinking. It was complicated to get to things, and you constantly had to look at the screen. I will never buy a 5 or 7 or what ever other cars they put that in because of its stupidy.

Does BMW rilly think these are things that people want, electronics that are to coplicated and constant problems. Why cant BMW come to their sences.

Mercedes always had a lot of gadgets and they would always break but lately they have seemed much better done. Mercedes has eliminated the useless gadgets and given people what they want. With the exception of the command system wich was ill fated from the start, they have gotten much better. I have always been a Mercedes person and will always be a Mercedes person, dont get me wrong, I love BMWs but I can not stand the new ones.

I could guarantee that if BMW hired me as a constultant on everything including design, their numbers would be up not down. Bangle must have them brain washed because very few people like his desings but they still let him ruin BMWs one by one.
 

flashinthepan

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#15
What an Embarrassment & Disappointment!
Cosmos, I think you are right on the money here, BMW could slow things down a bit and effectively test and abuse new things....BEFORE adding them into production. This coupled with Dumbass Bangle beagle is enough to upset die-hard customers IMO.

Hopefully BMW is listening & addressing these quick change gizmos, most of them I do like, but not the failures than come with them.

Great post [thumb]
 
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#18
A few months ago the check engine light on my car lit up, I drove it at 95-100mph for about 2 minutes then and it went off. I guess she got pissed off because I was babying her.
 

CosmosBlack

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#20
mikev said:
Its all about cutting edge technology! BMW one of the first to introduce Sat-Nav. Honda for example have only just started to put it in. Testing can only be done so much. In my job we test our software as best we can but the users don't know how to use it properally and also don't read the manual at all. if you don't do things the correct way it is possible for a problem you set up when you first got the car to resurface 2 or 3 years down the line.

It has been a widely known problem that movement and electronics don't mix very well. its got better but as cars become more technologicaly advanced the more problems we will have. like i said people complain bitterly about the I-Drive but this wasn't developed that long ago. to put it into perspective Microsoft windows. how many complain bitterly about that (Still) but it is the most used operating system in the world and most companies can't live without it. give it 10 years and what the 7 series has now the Honda Accord will have.

oh and if you think that all the electronics are a waste of time and money i have a simple word of advice don't tick the option box for them!
Thank you brahtw8, BMW is by no means a pioneer in terms of hi-tech equipment in their cars compared to their Japanese counterparts. Now, if drivers can so simply mess up the Hi-tech electronics by not using them properly, then I say the product is not user-friendly, not durable and definitely not good enough! They should have anticipated that in the designing stage.

You cannot compare computer Operating Systems with car computer systems in this way. If my computer breaks down, I am in the comfort of my home, I make phone calls to tech support, have it replaced or reinstall the system, download a patch etc...I am still in control. And a computer is a couple thousand $$$. If my car breaks down, I am stranded if I'm lucky. Or that could be the end of it for me if I'm not so lucky! For instance, a new MAF sensor that I replaced, was faulty in less than a week, and my engine just completely cut-off at 80mph in the fast lane! Repairs are ridiculously expensive if out of warranty. Most of the time, electronics fail early, so if you put high miles on your car, you would be out of warranty even though your car might be 2 or 3 years old. Besides costing many $$$ more than personal computers, there is inconvenience, frustration, you are helpless and at the mercy of the dealership, who at times, don't even know what the hell is wrong!!!

I don't care about cutting edge technology having to start some time so that in future we will have more reliable hi-tech stuff. I don't care that what lousy unreliable stuff BMW has now will show up in Honda's cars in 10 years time. I don't want to sponsor $$$ for innovation and the marketing edge for BMW, be the testing ground and pay for their failure and poor quality product so that they will come up with better and more reliable products in the future. I WANT WHAT I PAY FOR WITH GOOD MONEY, NOW, A DRIVING MACHINE WITH SUPERB PERFORMANCE AND HANDLING, QUALITY EQUIPMENT ALL ROUND, AND RELIABILITY!!!

Oh, and mikev, I do not think that all the electronics are a waste of time and money. I wouldn't mind them if they are reliable, not complicated and would make my life easier instead of stressing it! And I do not have a choice to pick or unpick the options, coz' they freaking come with the car!!! I believe hi-tech electronics should be an addition to the basic running of a car, being a support to what has already been mechanically proven over years. If the electronics should fail, which they will, nothing serious would be affected. Everything still runs, maybe not as smoothly, but the car is NOT WHOLLY DEPENDENT on the electronics.

You can't argue the fact that the newer BMWs are getting unreliable, meaning a lower quality product. The 3 series which has been rated excellent and highly recommended for so many years, is now rated "not recommended" coz' of reliability issues. The X5s are rated "unreliable". And now the 7 series. What once used to rule in their respective classes, the 3, 5 and 7series...are now history. It is sad.....

Having said all that...I want to make one thing clear. I am expressing my thoughts not for condemnation, but rather out of disappointment in BMW. I still agree they make one of the best driving machines you can buy. But because they want to stay in the game, they rush into unproven, unreliable hi-tech stuff that they themselves cannot handle yet, all at once...I feel that is unfair to it's loyal customers, like all of us here on this forum. I feel that my faith, trust and loyalty in BMW has been returned with betrayal. Becoz' I loved my previous 1995 e34 540i so much, I upgraded to a 2000 e39 540i, so that I would get basically the same engine but with improvements all round, and a newer bodystyle. I got what I expected...and what I did not expect as well...an unreliable car!


[:(]
 
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