GM Fails AGAIN - Major G6 folding hardtop failures

Messages
4,917
Likes
18
Location
Reading,PA
#1
DETROIT -- General Motors' problems with the Pontiac G6 convertible continue to mount.

Engineering problems already have forced GM to delay the launch of the retractable hardtop from next month until January 2006. Now those troubles threaten to push the start of production further into next year and could lead to cancellation of the program.

The G6 convertible is important to GM because the division desperately needs exciting products. Like the Solstice roadster, the convertible is meant to be a halo vehicle for the brand.

But four supplier and industry sources familiar with the program say the car's hardtop, which is supplied by Karmann USA Inc. of Plymouth, Mich., has flunked durability tests.

The top is supposed to survive two life cycles of openings and closings, for a total of 16,000 to 20,000 cycles, supplier sources say. But a supplier close to the program says the roof has failed after fewer than 10,000 cycles.

A poor fit between the deck lid and rear fenders is another problem, the source says.

'Damaged from the start'

"The whole program has been damaged from the start," one industry analyst says. "There has been a lot that has gone wrong."

Oliver Wehage, a Karmann vice president, insists the top meets GM specifications. He would not provide details of testing, except to say that Karmann in some cases created "overloading situations" for its internal research.

GM spokesman Jim Hopson said the convertible's top "meets and exceeds" all of the automaker's current life-cycle requirements, but declined to say what those requirements are.

"I've never been involved in a vehicle program that didn't have some problems," he says. "Our intention, at this point, is to have the vehicle available in the first quarter of 2006."

That's a slight shift from GM's position of Feb. 28, when it said the convertible would launch in January. Supplier sources say the launch originally was scheduled for September 2005.

GM has thrown two dozen engineers at the problem in a bid to keep the program on track. But GM has minimal experience with the technology. The only recent examples are the retractable hardtops on the Cadillac XLR and Chevrolet SSR.

The tops for both come from outside suppliers.

March target

A GM insider says the automaker needs to begin volume production by March. If that target cannot be met, he says, the program could be shelved because GM would not be able to amortize the vehicle's cost by the time the G6 is redesigned.

The automaker has not disclosed the planned sales volume for the convertible G6, which it has touted as one of the most economical retractable hardtops in the industry. The sticker price has been targeted around $30,000.

Pontiac had planned to bring out the G6 in waves. The sedan debuted last year. A coupe came out this month, and the convertible is next.

To create the convertible, the basic G6 had to be re-engineered because it was not designed to be an open-air vehicle. The convertible needs a stiffened underbody, and the interior must be redesigned to store the hardtop.

In February, a UAW official and a supplier source confirmed that GM had delayed the launch of the convertible four months, to January 2006, because of lingering engineering problems.

Miles Thompson, sales manager at Thompson Sales Co. in Springfield, Mo., which sells GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac and Saab, says his dealership will not order any convertibles until he has a better idea when they will arrive at dealerships.

"I'm not sure when we are going to get them," Thompson says. "We have no idea on allocation."
 

epj3

Senior Member
Messages
7,370
Likes
0
Location
Lancaster, PA
#5
" The G6 convertible is important to GM because the division desperately needs exciting products."
They just figured this out now?

"A poor fit between the deck lid and rear fenders is another problem, the source says."
Why is this just a problem NOW? Their cars, for the past 35 years, have had mis-aligned panels!
 

bmw046series

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,131
Likes
0
Location
Wisconsin
#6
Speaking of Pontiac I was at a bar a while back and someone asked me if that was my BMW 645 outside (I graciously said yes), and he said "I would never spend anymore money on a car than I spend on my Pontiacs". I laughed and told him, "When you have money it doesn't matter how much you spend on a car, you just can't decide which BMW to get".
 

epj3

Senior Member
Messages
7,370
Likes
0
Location
Lancaster, PA
#7
bmw046series said:
Speaking of Pontiac I was at a bar a while back and someone asked me if that was my BMW 645 outside (I graciously said yes), and he said "I would never spend anymore money on a car than I spend on my Pontiacs". I laughed and told him, "When you have money it doesn't matter how much you spend on a car, you just can't decide which BMW to get".
ah so you're the reason for the stereotype
 
Messages
182
Likes
0
Location
NY
#8
From my experience, any car with a sunroof will have problems. I specify ordered my car without a sunroof to save myself from headaches.

Anyway, I was in Vancouver this weekend. I rented a Grand Am. Quite a numb and boring experience. Though the car was an auto, it was a 3.4 V6. The acceleration was sloooow. I was thinking with .4 liter bigger than a 330 it would be in the same league. The funny thing was that when i returned I was jerking my 4runner around because i got used the numb brakes on the rental.
 

epj3

Senior Member
Messages
7,370
Likes
0
Location
Lancaster, PA
#9
Nataku said:
From my experience, any car with a sunroof will have problems. I specify ordered my car without a sunroof to save myself from headaches.

Anyway, I was in Vancouver this weekend. I rented a Grand Am. Quite a numb and boring experience. Though the car was an auto, it was a 3.4 V6. The acceleration was sloooow. I was thinking with .4 liter bigger than a 330 it would be in the same league. The funny thing was that when i returned I was jerking my 4runner around because i got used the numb brakes on the rental.
Huh? Every single car with a sunroof my family members have owned (me included) have had absolutely 0 problems with them. No leaks, nothing...my 182k mile e30's sunroof still worked flawlessly. I personally would NEVER ever buy a car without a sunroof.

That 3.4l engine is a waste of space, they should go with the 3.1 or 3.8 and dump the 3.4.
 
Messages
16
Likes
0
Location
Southern California
#10
The sunroof in my 318i leaked badly in several places when I once drove it through a car wash. Horrible experience to be trapped inside frantically trying to move things around that needed to stay dry. However, never leaks in a rainstorm or even when I wash her at home with the garden hose. The blasting water pressure in those car washes must be intense!
 

bmw046series

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,131
Likes
0
Location
Wisconsin
#11
The rule of thumb with a sunroof- if it doesn't have one in it when you order it don't get one after you have it, it will just leak. Of course a friend of mine and his Caddy Escalade leaks, wonder why? Once in a while when I take the Z4 to the autowach it leaks, mainly because you have to clean the rubber once a week to make sure it’s supple, and a little fragment of dirt will cause the rubber to let go.
 

epj3

Senior Member
Messages
7,370
Likes
0
Location
Lancaster, PA
#12
I honestly can't believe you people take your cars to the automatic car washes.... WTF. thats kind of like using a dish sponge filled with water on your tv screen.
 
Messages
2,611
Likes
5
Location
Seattle Area
#13
bmw046series said:
The rule of thumb with a sunroof- if it doesn't have one in it when you order it don't get one after you have it, it will just leak.QUOTE]

This is true in most cases but isn't a rule of thumb. I put a moon roof (after market) in my "72" 240z and never have had a leak in all the years I have owned it (20+ years). It still does not leak one drop to this day. If done right it shouldn't leak. The problem is getting it done right.

I had problems with my Honda Passport when I first purchase it new. It took almost 2 months to get it fixed. It was during a production year and they had a hard time getting the parts (not the glass just track and everything else) off the production line to the dealer. When they finally did get the parts to the dealer they it was missing some parts on the first try, the whole unit was crushed during shipping the second time, some wrong parts on the third time, and finally on the fourth try they got it right. They installed and I haven't had a problem with it sense. It has been over 3 half years now. I still worry about it though.

The dealer stated it was very rare to have a sunroof problem in model of vehicle. Other than that I have never had any other problems with sunroofs in any other vehicle I have owned and that would be many, which most if not all had sunroofs.....
 
Messages
1,247
Likes
0
Location
NY
#14
As a rule of thumb, every sunroof that is not aftermarket leaks, thats why they have drains. If you get water inside the car, generally it means that its not the seal of the sunroof (it is practically never perfect) but actually a problem with the drains. My whole carpet was soaked and I had no clue where the water was coming from, it turned out to be a disconected drain from the sunroof.
 

bmw046series

1000 Post Club
Messages
1,131
Likes
0
Location
Wisconsin
#15
epj3 said:
I honestly can't believe you people take your cars to the automatic car washes.... WTF. thats kind of like using a dish sponge filled with water on your tv screen.
I don't first of all you should never with a soft-top, by hand with a hose-water seeps in.

I had problems with my Honda

Hmmm.. [idea]
 
Messages
4,917
Likes
18
Location
Reading,PA
#16
bmw046series said:
The rule of thumb with a sunroof- if it doesn't have one in it when you order it don't get one after you have it, it will just leak.
...
I installed a $99 moonroof in my '77 Mustang back in 1981. Did it myself. It was OK for about 6 months, then the gasket started shrinking. Pretty soon it was leaking. Fortunately, I solved the problem shortly after that - I totaled the car!!
 
Messages
61
Likes
0
Location
Simi Valley, CA
#18
A friend of mine WAS an employee of a Pontiac dealership about 8 months ago. He told me he knew it was time to quit when the Pontiac regional manager was excited about the G6 and told him "this is going to bring GM back to the forefront".

Okay guys, think about what GM, Ford and Chrysler build. Cars that will run reasonably well for 60,000-80,000 miles and 4-5 years. In the mid-west (rust belt) where the majority of domestics are sold, cars typically will start to rust in 4 years. The domestics don't need to build a 200,000 mile car for this market. Here in So Cal, we are upset when we don't get 100,000 clean miles out of our car. We also keep our cars for 3-4 years, then trade it in for something new. We of course demand that we get a decent trade in value and the domestics just don't have good resale, nor do they give you 100,000 trouble free miles. That's why we don't buy them out here.
 


Top