BMW to help with opening of Hydrogen filling stations

[Kirby]

[size=-1]BMW may be on the verge of launching a new range of petrol-electric models powered by new hybrid technology developed jointly with General Motors and DaimlerChrysler, but that hasn’t stopped the German car giant announcing a joint-venture fuel distribution network with petroleum producer Total to promote the next big step in alternative vehicle power: hydrogen.[/size] [size=-1]BMW last week announced it has signed an agreement with Total to "co-operate closely in future in promoting hydrogen as a source of energy in road traffic".[/size]

[size=-1]In practice, the deal will see Total set up and operate three hydrogen filling stations in Europe by the end of 2007 to support "the introduction of BMW hydrogen cars into the market".[/size]

 

[bmw046series]

BMW as the "German Giant" I have never heard that term used about BMW, EVER!

 

[MrElussive]

Why are they opening them? I thought hydrogen sucked right now...didn't it take BMW a 6-liter V12 to produce like 200hp out of the motor?

 

[epj3]

Hydrogen > E85

 

[jrt67ss350]

Hydrogen > E85

That's not saying much. E85 sucks as a fuel.

 

[epj3]

That's not saying much. E85 sucks as a fuel.

Not really, in fact flex fuel vehicles attain more power and better fuel economy with E85 - it's the equivalent of 100-115 octane gasoline. The problem is E85 requires the internal combustion engine, which is pretty ancient technology now-a-days. If we don't start building hydrogen cars, that means we have to continue to rely on the same old companies refining something a little different. We need a damn change, and that's why it pisses me off that GM/Ford are really pushing this E85 thing. E85 isn't limitless, corn isn't limitless/infinitely renewable. It wont continue to be cheaper than gasoline.

 

[Kirby]

But remember that right now, we do not have enough electrical generation capacity to produce enough hydrogen. In the next 5 - 20 years, we can ramp up Ethanol production, distribution and blending faster than hydrogen. Example: a Miller brewing plant in Fulton, NY that closed 10 years ago was just sold to a company that will use it to produce Ethanol.

Right now the Feds pay farmers to NOT grow Ethanol producing crops (corn, soy, etc.) to balance supply and demand.

Here's a novel idea: use farm subsidy money to build the Ethanol infrastructure, and let the farmers sell corn, soy, etc. on the open market for a reasonable profit. Oh, yeah, can't do that - that's the way a free economy is SUPPOSED to work!

But, over the long term (15 - 20 years), I am convinced that the Nuclear Power -> Electricity -> Hydrogen is the future.

 

[bmw046series]

Eric E85 isn't efficient, try putting it into a vehicle, you'll wish you had it out; it is the equivalent of burning paper for a heat, burns to hot and to fast, the whole E85 thing is political BS.

E85 is just the flavor of the month and it is cheap and easy for GM and Ford to push right now, you are 100 percent correct on the fact it isn't limitless in fact it drives the price up because it is taxed when it is grown, taxed when it goes the factory, taxed when it goes to the pump and depends on something even less stable than the Middle East, WEATHER, here in WI we’ve had a lot of rain in the spring so less corn crop the price goes up, duh?

Kirby well said last line, in fact FUSION IS THE FUTURE. And if I can ever get the perpetual motion machine working that I have in my basement, I'd license it to everyone.

 

[epj3]

I understand that, Kirby, but if we support E85 and it becomes the future, in another 50 years there will be people talking about shortages of the minerals used to grow the corn (since the farm land is already stripped naked of all nutrients)

bmw046series, again you show your ignorance on yet another subject. This is a quote from Wikipedia, but there are sources there to back up the claims.

E85 has been repeatedly shown to produce more power than a comparable gasoline fuel, especially in engines that need high octane fuels to avoid detonation.[9] Ford Motor Company found that power typically increased approximately 5% with the switch to E85 [10]. Researchers working on the equivalent of E85 fuel for general aviation aircraft AGE-85 have seen the same results with an aircraft engine jumping from 600 hp on conventional 100LL av gas to 650 hp on the AGE-85. Recorded power increases range from 5% - 9% depending on the engine. [11][12]

Due to pressure to remove leaded fuel even from racing environments, several racing organizations are looking at ethanol or E85 fuels as suitable alternative fuels for high performance race engines.

In 2006, the "National Street Car Association" is adopting E85 as an approved fuel for both their American Muscle Car and Street Machine eliminator racing classes.

The National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) currently allows ethanol as an approved fuel in several of its racing classes. NHRA approved ethanol is allowed in their bracket classes, Hotrod, Modified, ProFWD, and ProRWD classes to name some of the more popular. At this time NHRA has not announced any plans to include E85 as an approved fuel in the classes that are currently limited to "pump fuels".

The Indy Racing League is likewise moving to ethanol based fuels in 2006, with 10% ethanol 90% methanol fuel blend, and switching to a 100% ethanol fuel in the 2007 racing season.

There is much discussion of NASCAR also making the switch to an alcohol based fuel in the future.

Interest in E85 is high enough that there are now competitions for engine builders to develop winning combinations for both power and fuel economy on this fuel. One such competition is sponsored by the AERA Engine Builders Association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#Air_Fuel_Ratio_comparison

 

[Kirby]

I understand that, Kirby, but if we support E85 and it becomes the future, in another 50 years there will be people talking about shortages of the minerals used to grow the corn (since the farm land is already stripped naked of all nutrients)

If that were true, then the world would have starved to death thousands of years ago. Since Roman times, farmers have practiced crop rotation to prevent that from happening.

 

[bmw046series]

I understand that, Kirby, but if we support E85 and it becomes the future, in another 50 years there will be people talking about shortages of the minerals used to grow the corn (since the farm land is already stripped naked of all nutrients)

bmw046series, again you show your ignorance on yet another subject. This is a quote from Wikipedia, but there are sources there to back up the claims.

I said it isn't EFFICENT, I said nothing about a reduction in power, in fact because it burns fast would make it more powerful, but it isn't efficient why do you think they have to use nickel-plated engines. I have corn fields out my backyard, I have very close friends that have invested in an Ethanol plant 20 miles from here, they even say there is to much hype and it ISN'T EFFICENT! If it isn’t efficient it has no future. If you are so smart, go ahead and put it into your car, and if it is so much power and efficiency and saves so much money, go with it and see how far you can get.

 

[epj3]

I understand that, Kirby, but if we support E85 and it becomes the future, in another 50 years there will be people talking about shortages of the minerals used to grow the corn (since the farm land is already stripped naked of all nutrients)

bmw046series, again you show your ignorance on yet another subject. This is a quote from Wikipedia, but there are sources there to back up the claims.

I said it isn't EFFICENT, I said nothing about a reduction in power, in fact because it burns fast would make it more powerful, but it isn't efficient why do you think they have to use nickel-plated engines. I have corn fields out my backyard, I have very close friends that have invested in an Ethanol plant 20 miles from here, they even say there is to much hype and it ISN'T EFFICENT! If it isn’t efficient it has no future. If you are so smart, go ahead and put it into your car, and if it is so much power and efficiency and saves so much money, go with it and see how far you can get.

I definitely do NOT support E85 and would never let it touch my car, I'm just telling you what others who have used it say about it.

 

[jrt67ss350]

Not really, in fact flex fuel vehicles attain more power and better fuel economy with E85 - it's the equivalent of 100-115 octane gasoline.

This isn't entirely true. While E85 vehicles may produce a couple more horsepower when running on E85 vs running on unleaded, they do NOT achieve better fuel economy with E85. While you quoted the part of the wikipedia article that states E85 can produce slightly more power than gasoline, you didn't quote the section that mentions the much lower air/fuel ratio required for E85 vs. gasoline. What does that mean? Here's a real world example: the new Chevy Impala E85 3.5 V6 is EPA rated at 21/31 mpg on unleaded and 16/23 mpg on E85. That's a BIG damn difference. In fact, there are sensors in the fuel system to detect when the fuel is E85 and correspondingly increase the fuel delivery rate. Ethanol is a MUCH less efficient fuel than regular gasoline with MUCH less energy per liter or kg (29.0 MJ/liter for gasoline vs. 19.59 MJ/liter for 100% ethanol - source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles).

Some other info I dug up with a quick and dirty google search:

Simply put, a flex-fuel vehicle using gasoline travels farther, at a clip of about 3 miles per gallon. That’s what we discovered while driving a 2007 Chevrolet Avalanche with flex-fuel capability. We clocked an average fuel economy of 13.4 miles per gallon using regular grade unleaded – not so hot, but much better than E85. A tank of E85 gasoline registered just 10.4 miles per gallon under virtually identical driving conditions. This makes the use the E85 more expensive, by around $20 more per tank. And while that may seem like chump change, it’s exactly the opposite of what people are currently looking to accomplish.

Currently, E85 prices are running close to those of regular grade unleaded gasoline. In our area, E85 cost $3.20 per gallon, about three cents less expensive than regular grade gasoline at the same filling station. Flex-fuel proponents promise that the price will come down as more people begin using the fuel, but detractors claim that our corn-based ethanol is not as efficient as sugarcane, and that farm subsidies to make corn ethanol are causing higher prices. Add to that the recent switch-over from MTBE to ethanol in regular gasoline, and availability of ethanol may also be affecting the price at the pump.

The real cost of E85, however, comes when you leave the station. Inefficient at a tune of about three or more miles per gallon, it costs more to get down the road, causing drivers to fill up more often – and pay virtually the same to do so. When you factor in its fuel economy – or lack thereof – the price of E85 would have to be around 20 percent less than regular gasoline in order to break even cost-wise.

At its current price per gallon, E85 doesn't save you money, and it might cost you more. E85 typically sells for 10 to 30 cents less per gallon than gasoline, depending on your region. However, E85 produces 72 percent as much energy per gallon as gasoline, so you burn more of it per mile — 28 percent more, in theory. This affects your mileage.

For example, the flex-fuel Chevrolet Impala equipped with a 3.5-liter V-6 engine gets an EPA-estimated 23/31 mpg (city/highway) on gasoline and 16/21 mpg when burning E85. The acceleration is pretty much the same, but the car's range is shortened. In other words, you'll be filling the tank more often when using E85.

Do the math and you'll discover that E85 must be priced roughly 28 percent less than gas just to break even. For example, if gasoline is $3 per gallon, E85 would have to be priced below $2.16 per gallon.

I maintain that while E85 may be better than gasoline in some respects (maybe slightly more power and questionable environmental benefits), it's political state combines with its inherent drawbacks to make it a crappy fuel.

 

[Kirby]

Interesting CNN video (halfway down the page) on Ethanol production:

One of the most promising is E85, known for getting fewer miles to the gallon but higher octane, resulting in more horsepower.

The fuel works in more than 30 models, including the Yukon sport utility vehicle from General Motors Corp., Silverado trucks and Impala cars from Chevrolet, and the Ford Taurus. Those flex-fuel cars can run on gas, E85, or combinations of the two.

 

[MrElussive]

My brother's Grand Cherokee wit the 5.7L HEMI V8 takes E85. We just feed it premium gas though. I don't think the engine would take a performance hit if we started using that?

 

[jrt67ss350]

My brother's Grand Cherokee wit the 5.7L HEMI V8 takes E85. We just feed it premium gas though. I don't think the engine would take a performance hit if we started using that?

No, but it'll get MUCH worse gas mileage.